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Let's talk about Gaza.

It's fucked up.


The US is the only nation of 15 to abstain from a UN resolution, backed by the other 14 to call for an immediate ceasefire in the region.


The absence of the American vote significantly weakens the weight of the resolution and predictably, Israel has chosen to reject it.


There's a demonstration in London tomorrow and I'm thinking of going.

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corey9

it is pretty fucked up. the US says it stands for so many things, but when it comes time to actually stand up for it we dont - unless there is some financial gain to be made. very sad.

Tonteau
Tonteau profile pic Alumni

It's just sad. I don't know much else about it.

squatterjohn

Hamas rejected it too. And if the US had voted they probably would've voted against the resolution and they have veto power so it wouldn't have passed at all. By abstaining they allowed the resolution to pass.

Ivantobealone
Ivantobealone profile pic Alumni

Unfortunately I have a feeling that
A Israel is going to pay dearly for this eventually
B Obama will turn out to be a disappointment, more of the same

the situation in Gaza is tragic and Aled, I think it will be a good thing if you attend and voice your opinion

corey9

whats even more fucked though, is why are the people who are fighting fighting? i dont know much, im not religious, and i dont know the whole story behind whats going on over there. so this may be a crazy mis-generalization, but why is it that the people who are seemingly the most religious are also the most violent? why is it that when religion is taken to the extreme things turn violent? isnt religion about understanding and peaceful existence? isnt whats going on the opposite of what should be happening for something based in religion?

tesco
tesco profile pic Alumni

*resists making shit Gazza joke

Are you really that surprised the US hasn't signed?

I might be going to that demo, I went to the last one (when Hezbollah was flavor of the month and Lebanon was getting pwnd)

tee_coupon

well, I'm from Israel.

I can tell you that we didn't want this war in Gaza but Hamas keep throwing rockets over Israel and Hamas get a lot of weapons from Iran so we had to act.

I know there are a lot of civilians hurt in this war but that is war. IDF show tons of videos that Hamas throwing those rockets from houses, schools and he thinks Israel won't bomb those places. they should understand that civilians are out of this game and that's how they learn.

canadianbeaver

I am certainly no expert on this topic Aled, but it appears, Hamas has no intention of recognizing any resolution, and the UN does not want to call Hamas a terrorist group. This is the main reason the US won't participate.

As I also understand it, the US supports Israel and as long as rockets keep firing from from Hamas unchecked, a ceasefire is pretty much not going anywhere.

aled
aled profile pic Alumni

No mate, I'm not surprised. I was just mentioning it because I don't know how it's being reported in the US.

I may be taking an old pair of chucks with me tomorrow.

canadianbeaver

And as I understand it, Israel is very important to the US, not for any sympathy to a Jewish state, religious, friendly or pious reasons at all.

It is just that it is the only democratic landhold point in the Arab region.

mullmuggins

I am not an expert either, but when Israel's own army have killed as many Israelis in friendly fire as have been killed by rockets from Gaza, you have to say that the Iraeli response is so far beyond disproprtionate that it needs a new word.

alvarejo
alvarejo profile pic Alumni

US has a strong relationship with Israel, so i'm not that surprised for that abstained vote.

tesco
tesco profile pic Alumni

tee coupon - you almost make it sound as though there is no reason for Hamas to be angry

squatterjohn

The US needs to strengthen democracy in Lebanon.

aled
aled profile pic Alumni

Hamas were elected by the Palestinian people because sadly they believe they are the best people to defend them against Israel. The US is keen to export democracy around the world, but when people elect the 'wrong' government, they choose not to recognise them?

They are the governing party, and they are the people that need to be negotiated with.

canadianbeaver

Last night here in Toronto there was a rally at a synagogue where 4000 people got together to watch the Israeli PM make a speech. They cheered, waved flags and showed solidarity.

A perfect place to make trouble for a terrorist but thankfully nothing happened. It is still safe to raise voices.

aled
aled profile pic Alumni

It's a strategic ally, but it's not the only democracy in the middle east.

canadianbeaver

This may be a naive question but here goes. If Palestine is such an important nation, why not give up a sliver of Egypt, Iran or Syria? Why a sliver of Isreal, a place the size of pea?

tesco
tesco profile pic Alumni

^for it is written!

canadianbeaver

Yup, that is about it. I saw the movie.

aled
aled profile pic Alumni

Yeah. I was wondering if there was a ticker somewhere that I could embed.

Gar0
Gar0 profile pic Alumni

This is my land.
No, this is my land
whispers - yeah, it's your land, not theirs.

No, this is MY land.
Fuck you pal, this is MY land
whispers - yeah, you tell 'em, cowboy.

Look, if you don't fuck off, I'm gonna kill you.
Not if I kill you first
whispers - good come back, here are some guns and tanks

Shit, man. Why are you so unreasonable?
Because you're were first
sits back and counts the cash

ok, it's WAR
WAR it is.
*whispers - lovely, profitable war

canadianbeaver

According to CNN, Hamas uses schools and innocent people in them as human shields for their leaders.

Certainly not to condone or approve of these numbers, but that could explain these numbers. Life is expendable to these people.

Tonteau
Tonteau profile pic Alumni

tee_coupon on Jan 09 '09 at 7:22am well, I'm from Israel.

I can tell you that we didn't want this war in Gaza but Hamas keep throwing rockets over Israel and Hamas get a lot of weapons from Iran so we had to act.

I know there are a lot of civilians hurt in this war but that is war. IDF show tons of videos that Hamas throwing those rockets from houses, schools and he thinks Israel won't bomb those places. they should understand that civilians are out of this game and that's how they learn.


---------------

Throwing is operative word, really. Palestinians have a tinpot bunch of militants and they're throwing homemade missiles over the border and facing the might of the iraeli army/airforce. Israel is doing the best possible recruiting job for hamas, right now. Airstrikes will end nothing.

Tonteau
Tonteau profile pic Alumni

HTMfaiL

mullmuggins

Have you seen the size of Gaza? There is nowhere that wouldn't have civilians in shield-like proximity.

evercurious

was hoping someone would post a blog on this, as the whole thing sickens me but i was aware there must be some kind of other view point...

got one of robert fisk's books up top of my to-read list, to try to get a better understanding of why the israeli army keep acting like bulls in a china shop.

and if civilians are being used as human shields, stop fucking firing!

aled
aled profile pic Alumni

I love how Israel is prepared to bomb schools and residential buildings and their defence is "Well, the terrorists hid there. Those people have no regard for human life".

aled
aled profile pic Alumni

That video does nothing if not prove how fucking desperate those people are.

canadianbeaver

oops sorry for the double

And like all news stories, unless we are there, we certainly cannot know the truth. So take the speech at face value.

evercurious

it's as if they're saying: we desire death like you desire life.

...
go see the pic of the little dead girl over on the guardian's website. if i were her mother in a situation like that, i'd consider the art of petrol bomb making. ramping up the conflict is not going to help anyone's cause.

V1ctorya

"IT's well that war is so terrible, or we should grow to fond of it" - Robert Lee.

I'm wondering about the whole thing myself. I watch the BBC news, but even American channels (at least in my area) are saying how Israel is on the OFFENSIVE, not defense, and there was even a commentator talking about "the Israeli aggressor" which was amazing to hear, since our news is usually pro-Israeli.

It's a difficult call, all I know for sure is that a lot of people are dying from the actions of others.

evercurious

isn't it time assassins made a comeback? their use is dodgy due to the unsanctioned potential, but when countries are attacking others on such large scales anyway... that may be me being very naive, but i'd rather the US had gone into afg/iraq on the quiet, and israel would have more chance of getting rid of the folks they're aiming for.

squatterjohn

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

tracerbullet
tracerbullet profile pic Alumni

Tom Waits wrote a great song about the Israel/Palestine conflict a few years ago. Sadly, it's still completely relevant.

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aled
aled profile pic Alumni

Israel assasinated 2 senior Hamas figures on the 1st and 3rd of January. You may also have heard of the late Benazir Bhutto who was probably the highest profile assasination of the last year or so. The process is still very much alive and well.

squatterjohn

The Americans supposedly had 638 assassination plans against Fidel Castro.

And we all remember that one of his famous American counterparts got shot in the head.

tee_coupon

Don't forget that Hamas's goal as a "political" organization is to destroy Israel and kill all of us. then, make Jerusalem as their capital city and make that countly as radical muslim countly. that is what you want.
Imagine you had to get all those treats and rockets in your country :S

tee_coupon

*a lot of spelling mistakes.. :S sorry

squatterjohn

I knew a girl at university who had to go back to Israel to be in the army. She didn't want to go back.

tracerbullet
tracerbullet profile pic Alumni

i don't blame her, john. israel has ridiculously strict regulations on army registration.

evercurious

sorry sorry - didn't mean to rile anything! just that assassinations seemingly get dealt with less emotionally (after the fact), than the aftermath of mass bombings. bhutto was in mind when typing - the person being aimed for was killed without taking out a town (the consequences are the same, but its hard for world voices to be heard shouting stop when two sides are mortaring each other). i obviously hate that these things can't be done diplomatically, but when the intent is to take people out i was wondering if it would be less viral.

squatterjohn

They didn't make Natalie Portman join the army. How'd she get out of that? They probably gave her a pass because she looks sexy in her "Stop Wars" t-shirt.

aled
aled profile pic Alumni

tee coupon - Don't think for a minute that Israel wouldn't love to make Gaza and the West Bank it's own. Both sides have territorial ambitions.

I'm not taking sides. I think both parties are equally unreasonable. I just think the Israeli response to the current conflict is disgraceful. Years of rockets and suicide bombers and the solution is to carpet bomb Gaza. People, really take no lessons from history.

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