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A little suggestion for Threadless

Greetings, Threadlings!


Just thinking out loud here.


FACT: Giving your competition a low score increases your own chances to win.


FACT: Some designers are compelled to do just that. You know who you are.


A logical suggestion:


The designers whose submissions are actively scoring at the moment, shouldn't be able to score others' submissions. Or their scores shouldn't count towards the final. This way the voting will be fair and impartial, and your average scores will be much higher.


Agreed?

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PeculiarTiffany
PeculiarTiffany profile pic Alumni

If they're doing it to yours, they're doing it to everyone else. In the end it may lower overall scores, but within the competition it evens out.

soloyo
soloyo profile pic Alumni

Motherhacker "The designers whose submissions are actively scoring at the moment, shouldn't be able to score others' submissions. Or their scores shouldn't count towards the final. This way the voting will be fair and impartial, and your average scores will be much higher."

The number of votes for submissions has decreased dramatically in the last couple of months. What we need are ways to increase voters participation NOT decrease it.

Motherhacker

True - statistically. But it still doesn't make it right.

Jordan_Bender
Jordan_Bender profile pic Alumni

Score doesn't matter.

Motherhacker

Voter participation will increase only if there's an incentive to vote. Like a point system. One vote - one point. Collect X points - redeem for a free T-shirt.

macdoodle
macdoodle profile pic Alumni
1 design submitted -

I'd like to think that most legitimate members of the community are honest and fair when it comes to the voting process whether they have a design in the running or not. By locking someone out of that process, it sends a message of distrust to the people that make Threadless what it is at its core.

taz-pie

threadless owes you nothing, dude. why should they give you free stuff, just for voting? that is a dumb idea. there is plenty of voter participation without begging for free stuff all the time.

Mantichore
Mantichore profile pic Alumni

FACT: Giving your competition a low score increases your own chances to win. wrong, getting a high score doesn't necessarily mean you win. Like Soloyo said, we need more voters, so the average gives a better view of how much the design is appreciated.

digsy
digsy profile pic Alumni

imo vote numbers are down because there are so many submission and they're getting spread so thin. bring back 7 days scoring and i reckon that could improve without having to offer people rewards for voting.

Morkki
Morkki profile pic Alumni

Designs are not just competing against the designs scoring at the same time. So logically you would have to ban designers from scoring completely.

Motherhacker

Taz, I never said that Threadless owes me anything. The point is to bring non-designers, the buying crowd to the voting process. And that will benefit everyone - designers, Threadless buttomline, buyers.

Morkki
Morkki profile pic Alumni
Motherhacker said:

Voter participation will increase only if there's an incentive to vote. Like a point system. One vote - one point. Collect X points - redeem for a free T-shirt.

It will increase voter participation but not necessarily the amount of honest, meaningful voting.

Wharton
Wharton profile pic Alumni

Plus, if people are hell bent on down voting others submissions then they will just simply make a fake account and down vote that way. Sad but true.

PeculiarTiffany
PeculiarTiffany profile pic Alumni
Wharton said:

Plus, if people are hell bent on down voting others submissions then they will just simply make a fake account and down vote that way. Sad but true.

I can see this happening pretty quickly.

Threadless already does voting incentives, like winning gift cards and stuff randomly. And I really wish they would bring back 7 day voting for challenges. My artist brain cannot fathom how difficult it is the fix that since they said in the past that they intend to change it back eventually. Eventually? Why not now? How hard is that to change?

moosabman
moosabman profile pic Alumni

Yeah there have always been and will always be down-voters, but numbers of voters have gone down so so so much, basically banning the active community, those who are submitting designs, would be suicidal.

ivanrodero

that's a generalization and a wrong one, I like to score and sub at the same time and give good scores to good stuff even if I one of my designs is competing against it. Yes some of the new people that don't have enough time here do it because they think that it will improve their chances to win, but most of the people that become a regular don't do so, because we don't think it helps at all.

The only way to have good scores is doing good stuff that people likes and want to wear, you will always find haters and cheaters.

Motherhacker

Good points there, guys. Well... I hereby pledge not to engage in down-voting. What you do is up to you. Peace.

melmike
melmike profile pic Alumni

Since both your premises are incorrect, it's illogical to think that your conclusion/suggestion should make sense. It's patently clear that giving your competition low scores does not increase your own chance of winning, and I very much doubt many (if any) designers are feeling 'compelled' to do so. If they are doing it though, it's most likely due to ignorance, not malice. Not a sound enough reason to punish honest voters who happen to also be designers.

Further to that, I'd suggest that the majority of down-voting is thanks to well-meaning but ignorant friends and family members who've been asked to vote, and who just blindly 5 the design in question, then 1 anything else that looks like a threat. That's my experience anyway, when I show people who are unfamiliar with Threadless about voting. Of course, I'm always quick to ask them not to do that.

I agree with everyone that says we need to be encouraging more voting, not less. At the end of the day, I'm not concerned with fairness, and from what I can tell, neither is Threadless. As far as I'm aware, it's very easy for them to discern who are the legitimate voters and who are the down-voters.

Wharton
Wharton profile pic Alumni

In fairness the concept of down voting does work, seeing as Threadless picks designs to be printed from a pool of the top scoring designs. I think you're right thats its mainly perpetrated by 'quick-buck' making artists and their cronies. I think Threadless looks out for weird voting patterns but I think its all of our responsibility that we look out for idiots.

dnice25
dnice25 profile pic Alumni
1 design submitted -

Yeah down voting is a dick move but it happens to everyone and if your design is strong It will get a good score regardless. Although that incentive idea could work? Those that help a certain amount of shirts get printed by giving quality votes gets something? hmmm... but then people won't score honestly they'll just be trying to win right? Ehhh what the heck the status quo is less complicated!

Jordan_Bender
Jordan_Bender profile pic Alumni

I only give someone a 1 if it's a ripped-off design. 2's are for designs that suck but at least they tried.

littlem
JordanLBender said:

Size doesn't matter.

Jordan_Bender
Jordan_Bender profile pic Alumni
littlem said:
JordanLBender said:

Size doesn't matter.

sometimes it does

Motherhacker

Just an observation, and, please don't hold it against me.

Taken from a profile of one of the fine people responding to this thread.

Snapshot of their awesomeness

17316 design ideas scored

1.33 average score given

1.33 on 17K+ scores.

Doesn't look like there's a whole lot of love there, does it? My average is 4.0 by the way. Just sayin'...

Morkki
Morkki profile pic Alumni

It's OK not to like designs, you know

Wharton
Wharton profile pic Alumni

I would say that 4.0 is a crazier score to have. 85-90% of the subbed designs are truly awful and voting them up doesn't do the artists any favours and it doesn't do the community any favours either. Do you honestly thing that such a high proportion of designs deserve to be printed?

My average score is pretty similar to the one you're quoting and that it reflects the quality of work in contention.

PeculiarTiffany
PeculiarTiffany profile pic Alumni

If you vote a lot and on everything, you're going to have a low average. You have to wade through the terrible stuff to get to the gems and those are few and far between.

Motherhacker

Well, my rule is pretty simple. I score something I like. I skip something I don't care much about. Along the lines of "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". Not trying to impose my views on anyone, but this environment would have been a lot healthier if everyone followed it.

Akaka
Akaka profile pic Alumni

Well, I think skipping a design is not productive at all because Threadless wants to know what you think and they include the lower scores on the scale for a reason. Basically if more people voted like you it would make life harder for Threadless because there would be less variation in the final scores. As a designer I would rather just take the low score as long as it's honest, and use it to make better designs in the future.

Morkki
Morkki profile pic Alumni

The numbers are there to be used. If you weren't supposed to vote something low, you wouldn't have that option.

Motherhacker

@Akaka - not necessarily. With this scenario, a number of scores will be the decisive factor (as opposed to the average). FaceBook doesn't have a Dislike button for a reason, don't you think?

Morkki
Morkki profile pic Alumni

And this isn't Facebook. Look, you're new and you probably don't realize this but someone starts this exact same discussion at least once a month.

Akaka
Akaka profile pic Alumni

The number of scores/scorers varies a lot all the time and it usually has nothing to do with quality. That wouldn't work. And if Threadless wanted that, they would have a similar system to some other sites where you only have the option to vote or not vote instead of a one to five score. I much prefer the Threadless system.

PeculiarTiffany
PeculiarTiffany profile pic Alumni

I'd rather get an honest 2 then somebody skipping my design and outright ignoring it. The opinions of others is what helps Threadless gauge interest. If it was just a high score circle jerk that wouldn't be very efficient.

digsy
digsy profile pic Alumni
Motherhacker said:

@Akaka - not necessarily. With this scenario, a number of scores will be the decisive factor (as opposed to the average). FaceBook doesn't have a Dislike button for a reason, don't you think?

Wrong. If they only wanted to know what you like, they would simply have a single vote option like DBH does. The 1s and 2s are there for a reason - Threadless needs to know what you don't like as much as what you do. What good is all the high votes if you don't have low votes to compare them to, we'd just have a site with a bunch if designs scoring 4

Wharton
Wharton profile pic Alumni

The entire Threadless framework is based on peer review and if you're not reviewing the entire spectrum of designs then it defeats the purpose of having a democratic process. Just because you vote something low doesn't mean you're being an asshole, it just means that you're being realistic.

Morkki
Morkki profile pic Alumni

If everyone only scored the designs they like and ignored the rest it would only really measure the amount of attention a design gets. And such a system would be very easy to exploit. The ratio of high vs. low votes is a much more useful tool for finding printworthy designs.

[+duracell-]

dumb people shouldn't be allowed to vote.

there, I said it.

taz-pie

Were you talking about me, motherhacker dude?

goliath72
goliath72 profile pic Alumni

Imagree we need a way to increase votes because votes are way down. One , y lates design collan had only 145 votes boo

soloyo said:

Motherhacker "The designers whose submissions are actively scoring at the moment, shouldn't be able to score others' submissions. Or their scores shouldn't count towards the final. This way the voting will be fair and impartial, and your average scores will be much higher."

The number of votes for submissions has decreased dramatically in the last couple of months. What we need are ways to increase voters participation NOT decrease it.

fightstacy
fightstacy profile pic Alumni

This conversation again?

If my vote was taken away in contests I had entered, I wouldn't mind so much, but that is taking away more information, ..maybe that information is biased anyway. ..and does it guarantee whoever has the highest average at the end of it a print? Hell, why even vote at all? There should be just a panel of 5 judges who decided the fate of every design. Maybe weighted votes depending on reputation, let's change the scale to a 10 point system with .5's ..let's give prizes away for most 5's given. Or maybe everyone gets five 1's a day. Let's all upvote something horrible to show Threadless how F'd up this system is. Let's stop voting altogether!

you know, ..or Vote often, vote honestly, supply Threadless with some informed information ...and don't get too caught up in the downvoting horse carnival.

Motherhacker
taz-pie said:

Were you talking about me, motherhacker dude?

What gives you that impression, Sweetie-Taz-Pie?

Jordan_Bender
Jordan_Bender profile pic Alumni
Motherhacker said:
taz-pie said:

Were you talking about me, motherhacker dude?

What gives you that impression, Sweetie-Taz-Pie?

Oh shit.

littlem
[+duracell-] said:

dumb people shouldn't be allowed to vote.

there, I said it.

blind people either. there! finally off my chest. sigh of relief!

ProjectENDO

I think the thing that grinds my gears the most is how much of a joke the scoring system is. I'm seeing shirts getting printed with scores of less than 2 out of 5, and yet I'm still getting shut down with almost a 3 out of 5 on several of my designs. I don't know if Threadless is just playing it safe and milking their top artists, but I'm feeling seriously crushed right now. I'm starting to feel like this whole scoring system is just a big hurtful scam. No matter what I design, no matter how clever or well-drawn it is, it's just brushed aside.

biotwist
biotwist profile pic Alumni

If I didn't vote then how could I have a say in the shits I want to buy? and @ProtectENDO you need to lighten up, I looked at your work and I'm not shocked they got passed over, I personly havent had a threadless print in over 2 years, yes it kills some of my motovation (success breeds success) but I still try when I have time, it helps me to keep making art. Just keep trying or move on.

Motherhacker
No matter what I design, no matter how clever or well-drawn it is, it's just brushed aside.

I like your style, so you have my scores. Don't give up, keep designing. Hug?

melmike
melmike profile pic Alumni

^^ I'm not sure I get what you're saying ProjectENDO. Are you saying that the scoring system is a joke because you've supposedly seen designs with final scores of 1.x that have been printed, while your 2.9 design, link, wasn't printed? I have some points of my own to bring up about this.

  1. I highly doubt that anything that ever scored under 2 has ever printed.
  2. You've submitted 13 designs with no prints and are starting to feel crushed? There are artists on here who are more prolific and popular by orders of magnitude, who've never been printed, but understand that Threadless isn't scamming, or wilfully hurting them.
  3. Your last sentence makes no sense to me. Clever and well drawn designs are extremely popular and are always the most likely to print. I think what you might be describing is a certain misalignment between what you personally perceive as clever and well drawn, and what the general community thinks.
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