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 Yes, I know she is naked, no you should not be grossed out or offended in any way.
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FRICKINAWESOME on May 31 '07 I like how you tried to avoid the issue of bush by putting in a bush-shaped shadow, which is even more noticeable and disturbing to some undoubtedly on this site. I think the colors and imagery is pretty damned awesome tho. And since im over the age of 15, i don't care if an awesome shirt has nudity or not in it. Just as long as it's a good design..which this is. Love the size of this thing as well.
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Cool design. The Cheshire Cat's grin it terrifying. I think I would have this on a ligher coloured t-shirt - maybe something in a yellowy colour?
But great - 4 1/2 |
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I like the colour, like the effect, like the size, like the design. I dun care is it naked.. $5
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Very, very cool design!
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Fantastic. Would also make an amazing poster or print.
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Great design and colors like a 60's concert poster.
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mathiole on May 31 '07 i like theillustration...but this retangular compoition fits better on a poster...nice one thou
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I'm tired of the attempts to mainstream porno -- a zero from me
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Beauty! $5
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Porno? Really?
$5. |
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helo - not every illustration of naked women is pornographic. This is a clevel illustration which introduces themes of maturity to Alice in Wonderland. It's clever, complex and well-illustrated.
For you to give it a 0 is ridiculous - are you saying this has NO artistic merit? None at all? |
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It's a lovely illustration, but I have no interest in wearing naked women on my shirts, well-drawn or no.
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Why not slmstanley?
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I love the people who don't know the difference between porn and art. 5
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porn...wow...ok, next time I will make the columns out of giant dildos and put as many sex refrences on it as possible. *sigh* some people.
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She does kind of have a "come hither" look on her face.
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;D You guys are silly. I'm a girl, and I would def. wear this! 5! Love the Mr. Caterpillar's smoke around Alice, favorite part. Maybe another design with the same concept, but Alice in a different position or on the side instead of the middle.
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its done well, but i am not a huge fan of boxed in designs
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i think its done pretty classy. a really cool veiw on alice. i like that she is curvy, and not some rack of bones. $5
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Saw this in the critiques. Love what you have done to it. $5
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i don't think this ART belongs on a t-shirt, maybe a poster kept in your home/office....there are young kids in public who don't need to see this on someone's shirt. nice illustration however. 5 for the design, but 0 on a tee.
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I think this is very well done.
I would not personally wear it, but I'm sure there are plenty who would. 5 |
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heyheyitsme
i really don't think a well designed shirt with a nude woman on it is going to be bad for the public when people walk around the public with FUCK ______ but whatever you want in the blank plus looks at mainstream TV where rap videos mainly consisting of cars, and half naked hot women 5, but i wouldn't buy it, still love it though |
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heyheyitsme - why would children be bothered by nudity?
Kids see worse on TV, adverts, billboards, at the beach, wherever, every day. And the truth is, kids don't care - adults care. |
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I like it 5$!!
I'm tired of all the cutesy T's that get printed... |
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yeah, thanks for that example travoli, I noticed that too, I was hesitant about this piece, but I thought: 1) it isn't lewd 2) I covered all of her naughty bits and 3) aren't all the people on this site artists or art lovers? Why would you not consider the naked body beautiful?
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The design is great, in a retro-rock poster way. The "wonderland" font isn't doing it for me though.
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the mad hatter looks a little too much like the original carrol pic. might want to tweak it a little instead of copying.
http://www.ericharshbarger.org/lego/images/mad_hatter/madhatter-WH-BK_100SESh_s.gif other than that it is awesome and i would totally buy. i dont see any prob w/ the nudity and think its weird not to have nips. threadless has printed nipple b4. |
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she has nips, under the hair
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Love the Tweedle Dee Tweedle Dumb at the bottom...
Hope this gets printed...I'll sport one just to piss off the whiny "no nude" commenters. Art+Nudes... yeah, those two haven't been historically paired together for centuries.... |
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Hellooooooooooo Alice!
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Brilliant!
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SMASHING!!!!!!!!!
To die for! A Huge $5 for you !!! |
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Agree with dustyj72 about copyright on mad hatter, maybe tweedledee and tweedledum as well. Otherwise is great! (I didn't even think about worrying that she was nude until I saw the comments.)
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Kudos to you for not making her some ridiculously skinny stick and giving her realistic tits, ass, thighs and curves. Would definately buy for a guy.
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mezo on May 31 '07 Very intricate and glorious. I am enjoying how each aspect of the design interacts with each other. And the color scheme is yummy.
The figure bugs me, though. Not because she is naked, but because her body feels out of proportion. Her bent leg has a super long shin & stubby thigh, her feet look giant in comparison to her tiny hands, and she has a chicken neck. I would also like to see her face look less like Barbie, and more human. 4 |
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Edword on May 31 '07 Nice job!
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Edword on May 31 '07 nice job!
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her form is partially in shadow
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I think thats beautiful. A couple comments though. I don't think everyone on here is an artist or art lover. They are T-shirt BUYERS so you have to design something that people want to wear. I am an artist AND love art and I wouldn't wear this in public because of the suggested nudity. Anyone under 18 would be barred from wearing this and anyone with kids (24+?) probably would not wear it either so you're looking at a market of college kids. You should resub this with some clothes and see how your score does. 4
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i don't think this ART belongs on a t-shirt, maybe a poster kept in your home/office....there are young kids in public who don't need to see this on someone's shirt. nice illustration however. 5 for the design, but 0 on a tee.
i think thats a very valid opinion, and you guys seem quick to argue it with an uneven argument. people are entitled to their own opinion, and they regarded the fact that this is very good art. and i agree. this is a really really nice piece, but for as for a shirt, i would never wear this in public. sure people are walking around with fuck yous on their clothing, but i personally am rather conservative and i would personally never wear anything like this. i wouldn't be offended if i saw it on a shirt, and i dont know if i'd want my 6 year old brother seeing this shirt (in such a large size too, the freakishness of the cheshire cat, and the raising of questions such as "why does that lady's no no place look different from mine?"), but people are entitled to wear whatever they want... i duno. its beautiful, i'd wear it to sleep. i would even buy it for my boyfriend cus hes into this kinda thing. but uh, way too big and a little exposed |
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Ok, it is not something that I would actually wear, for many reasons. Mostly because of the size of the design on the shirt - not really my style. But the design is fabulous. It reminds me of Bob Masse's style with simpler lettering.
You know what, as far as the nudity goes, if we could make the whole thing a non issue, kids would become much more mature and intelligent teenagers and might know a thing or two about their bodies without being so ashamed of them. What is so wrong with an attractive human form anyway??? |
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this is very beautiful - you did the nudity in an artful way instead of gaudy and pornographic. it's funny all the little references you put in to alice in wonderland, which i know is the idea but it's very well done! and the fading texture is great, too.
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so anyway, 5 and buy.
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i love this! deff. 5, i like how it changed from critique and i'm glad you submitted it! i hope this gets made into a shirt, i want it. i disagree with all these nakedness/porno comments, its not bad at all, you don't see anything bad..i have seen a lot worse things on shirts. =] hehe love the cheshire cat btw
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In terms of the copyright, I doubt that's an issue. Alice in Wonderland was first published in 1865, so I imagine the story, characters and the original John Tenniel illustrations are probably in the public realm by now. I may be wrong though.
I find the reference to genitalia as "no no place" a bit disturbing. Besides - the genitalia is covered, as are the breasts. Really, this is no different than if she was portrayed in underwear or a bikini. There is nothing wrong or offensive in nudity, and children in particular do not need to be "protected" from nudity if it is non-sexual, as this is. Anyway - regarding her proportions, I think the shadowed parts may be enhancing that, but personally I'm happy to accept the slight misproportions. |
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Alice got all growed up!
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I am a woman and think the design is beautiful. There is a difference between porn and celebrating the full figure of a woman. This shirt is the later. 5!
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some of you people sound like a bunch of uptight right wing mormons.
if you get offended by this design then you need serious help |
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Love it as a poster. I want it to work as a T.
Huge fan of the 60s rock posters. I love all the elements together really nice image. the image is a little big on the shirt. I'd buy it. $5 |
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thanks to those who are being supportive. I had no idea this would cause such a shitstorm
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ISABOA on May 31 '07 no worries smitty - great work - 5
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I'd buy it just for the artistic merit and the fact that it's going to get someone's panties in a bunch. Sometimes I'm shamed to live in America. $5
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$5. Great design.
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OlliRudi on May 31 '07 i like it! what's your rastering technique?
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I work in Photoshop, so it is a collection of different brushes basically
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LOVE.
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I'm with mezo a bit on her body. I would have liked her to be a bit more disproportionate or more human. She looks kind of like she's in design limbo. And the way her lower 'naughty bits' are covered is really distracting to me.
But, I would probably buy it based on the Cheshire Cat and everything about the caterpillar. |
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I really like it. It's almsot perfect.
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Smitty this is great. I am so tired of people acting like the naked body is something gross and wrong. I think this is beautiful and commercials in other countries show way more than this. Good job. 5$
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Awsome!
5$ :) |
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This is just beautiful and anyone that says it is pornographic just sounds ignorant...
awesome awesome stuff 5$ |
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o and for people who say it should be on a poster.... i think it would look great on a poster... but i think also because it is so large on the shirt that it would loook just as amazing on one
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...I really imagined Alice to be someone more mysterious, as in cloaked/shadowy, or even someone with a psychological problem, but definitely not... well, nude.
I'm opposed to nudity because you NEVER see male nudity, only female nudity, and in a way it's is just an exploitation of the female body, a way to sell products or to shock emotion out of people. But putting that aside, I do like the design. I love the creepiness of it. Everything else on the shirt is amazing. |
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This actually reminds me of how an "artist" painted a big naked woman on one of the buildings downtown, and the city left it up despite complaints because it was "art." And then someone else went and painted clothes on her. I guess that was art also.
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i love love love this. the way it was done, the colors everything!!! 55555555!
and its is so not porn, that bugs me. its like when people call figure drawing porn. porn and art are not the same thing. |
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I think the lady's physiology is... not quite right. Her left leg is looking pasted on, and the way she is balancing her weight seems less than realistic (the hip juts out too far, in my opinion, and that is probably what at least a few of the "porn" comments refer to).
While I think naked ladies on shirts is fine, it creeps me out in this case because Alice of the stories is a little girl and there's been some controversy on whether the author of Alice in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll, qualifies as a pedophile. I understand that your shirt has nothing to do with this, but for me the association is there. |
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Love the design, although I would prefer it a little smaller on the shirt itself.
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This is truly a beautiful design. 5$
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^perhaps a smidge smaller on the shirt though.
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Robsoul on May 31 '07 I read some of the comments on here and ppl are absolute morons. Beautiful shirt and lovely colors + imagery. A 5+$ from me. Cheers.
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wicked. but what's the meaning of alice being an adult in the design while the rest of the characters have remained the same age and why is she naked?
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wicked.
what is the meaning of alice being older and naked while everyone/thing has remained the same. |
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Very cleverly illustrated, down to the rabbits under "Wonderland". I have to say, though, that Alice's facial expression puts me off a bit. I think one of shock or bewilderment would've been more in tune with the rest of your theme. All the other characters have an air of creepiness to them. For her to appear like a seductress does detract a bit from the weirdness of Wonderland.
Overall, though, your design is very striking and imaginative. I like it, but for me, it would be more wearable if Alice looked like she was connected to the creepiness surrounding her. |
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i like it, but good luck getting it printed :/
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I really hope this gets printed because I will definitely buy it!!!! $5
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I like it a lot, but with the design so large, it looks like some of it might be lost around the sides. Looking at the model, some of the cat's face is cut off, which might make it more difficult for someone to tell what it is.
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i like it, but the font is a little strange, i would expect something more fairground/peepshow. Oh and for all the "no nude" folks out there, lewis carrol while a great writer....took some REALLY dodgy photos of young girls in white stockings, some say the insperation for Disneys Alice....
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WalkingAlong - the absence of naked men from art and popular culture is not a reason to reject all images of the naked female body.
Furthermore, portraying the female body is not always exploitative, a way to sell a product or an attempt to shock people. It can also be an appreciation of the beauty of the female body. You're right that men's bodies are rarely appreciated for their beauty, but that is no reason to censor work like this. On the whole "Lewis Carrol" as paedophile thing - rather than making this creepy, I think it just adds another layer of meaning to this. 5 |
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Wow, this is actually really good. Just a shame that you couldn't fit in more of the characters. I'm also not too sure about tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum as they are fairly minor characters. If anything, maybe the queen, but I'd be rather tempted to drop them altogether. 4+
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I like this design a lot, great colors. I like beautiful naked men and women too. But I think her hair could better and the leg on the front too.
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fatheed on Jun 01 '07 Is it just me, or does the thumb image relate to nothing contained in this design? Nice colours, but for me the problem is not the nudity, its the anthropometrics. Her torso looks too squat and also - she resembles a blonde Andie MacDowell, which freaks me out a bit.
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I don't understand what people think is wrong with her bodyshape - the only thing that jumps out at me is the front leg, which seems to have a knee a little too high, and a calf a little too long. The torso looks fine to me - people come in all shapes.
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next image I do is going to be a naked dude :)
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Yay! It'll be interesting to see how many people say that the design is gay for having a naked guy on it. I love idiots.
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classicoke on Jun 01 '07 but then again this aint one of em posters in a doctors reception, right? the wicked legs actually helps this wicked design. 4 (cause them two dudes at the bottom aint helping the design at all)
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13strong, I think people are reacting to the awkward way she is standing (which may be possible physically, but I wouldn't bet on it). It makes everything look weird.
Also, I'm not trying to be a jerk (though I realize this may come off a bit aggressive) but I honestly cannot imagine what "layer of meaning" you are getting from a naked lady (who represents a character who is a child) on a shirt about a book by a rumored pedophile. Especially since her positioning is sexually provocative (that hip can't be interpreted any other way, in my opinion). Could you please clarify? |
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that's a wow! 5$
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I agree that her stance is sexually provocative, but that to me is part of the design and the ideas it represents. And before anyone pipes up, sexuality, like nudity, is not inherently pornographic. One of the things I like about this design is this: Alice in Wonderland is, IMO, about innocence and a fear of growing up or ageing. It is also very much about children, and how they view the world (the twisted logic, the games played with language etc). By presenting Alice as a grown woman, and surrounding her with warped, threatening, sinister imagery, I think this design is an interesting take on that idea. The innocence is gone, and is replaced with sexuality, danger and a kind of seediness. The fact that this is done in a 60s, psychedelic style communicates similar ideas.
Sorry if all that came off as pretentious. I also wanna say that I get really tired of all the allegations of paedophilia brought against Lewis Carrol. There is absolutely no evidence that the guy was a paedophile, or that he abused children. So the link between those allegations and the sexuality in this image means nothing to me. |
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Montro on Jun 01 '07 Shakira Shakira, Beyonce Beyonce
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nes-k on Jun 01 '07 5 $
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I find the reference to genitalia as "no no place" a bit disturbing. Besides - the genitalia is covered, as are the breasts. Really, this is no different than if she was portrayed in underwear or a bikini. There is nothing wrong or offensive in nudity, and children in particular do not need to be "protected" from nudity if it is non-sexual, as this is.
i dont know if you noticed.. but that was in quotes? like my little brother is going to say "why does her crotch look different from mine?" or "is that that so called vag ive always been hearing about?" when you're 6, you're 6. and i duno if you have a kid, or have a little sibling or whatever, but i dont care HOW tasteful the nudity is, i dont think my brother is ready to see the naked form yet imho. and yeah, i know there are worse things on shirts, but that doesnt mean i want him looking at those either im not saying this is porn, im not saying its ugly, im not saying it should be kept from human consumption im saying that there are age appropriate things out there and this is one of those things. a 6 year old is not ready for this. plain and simple. am i wrong, or did you just call all the people who dont agree with you idiots? |
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13strong, you rock. I am so happy that someone understands because part of my plan was to let everyone have their say about this piece and then go into an explaination. However, I think you have done a very good job of explaining it for me! That is exactly what I was trying to achieve, it is a total loss of innocence and also a persepective on how our environment CAN have an effect on the person we devlop into and how we are viewed by the world. I wasn't trying to make it a childrens illustration. To me the story has similarities on the cultural changes that happened during the 60's (hence the psychedelic style). Conservativism fell by the way side because people were too tired of being "proper", this led to a full pendulum swing to almost complete libralism.
I know this is kind of a "heavy" piece for a t shirt design, but the idea hit me and I decided to follow through with it. I am absolutely thrilled with the different viewpoints coming through on this blog, keep it up guys! |
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i feel like you need to get off your high horse 13strong. while everyone is trying to be honest about their opinions of the shirt without attacking, i find your line of defense condescending and pompous.
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I understand where you are coming from ilovetomasb, I wouldn't want this made into a onesie too. However, as the internet is our last democratic medium, I hope people vote for what they want. Obvoiusly you don't want it made and therefor you should score it poorly.
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beautiful...i just dont wear naked women...so 5 from me for the art work
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i gave it a three, for the art. which is good because my average score is like a 1. shirts that i would never wear and think that suck/are stupid/the person didnt try get a straight 0. shirts that i would never wear/i dont really like but the person put a little effort get a 1-2. shirts that have effort, i like, but would never wear i give a three. and then shirts i love - despite simplicity - and would defn wear get a 5 and if id actually buy them.. well the dollar sign
so a 3 to you sir, it really is pretty |
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"am i wrong, or did you just call all the people who dont agree with you idiots?"
I think you're wrong. I don't see that anywhere in my comments. "i find your line of defense condescending and pompous." I don't know what I can do about that. I disagree - I'm simply countering people's objections to the shirt in a rational and reasonable way. If people can't handle debate and discourse, that's not my problem. I am sorry about the perceived criticism of a six year old though. I guess I wasn't clear enough. Presumably the child was taught to use the term "no no place" for their genitalia. The negativity and prohibition inherent in the term is something I find a little bizarre and disturbing, but in fact, the child's upbringing is none of my damn business, so I apologise for what I said. |
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Really like the design, not sure about the color of the shirt - kind of takes away/makes the artwork blend into it.
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yeah you're right.. i should totally tell a 6 year old "This is a penis, and this is a vagina" 6 is totally an appropriate age for that talk. and hell yes it is a no no place til he's old enough to understand sexuality and the connotations his dick has. anyhow, theres some comment you have about a male version and people freaking out and calling them idiots. but um, no ones not been able to handle your line of defense, i just feel that if a comment could have a tone, yours have an air of mockery and, well, like i said, they're a bit condescending. perhaps its your language, whatever
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This isn't the place for this discussion. If you have a problem with me or my comments, fine. I couldn't care less.
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13strong, I just wanted to thank you for replying to my comment. While I still disagree with you, I appreciate your point of view and you supported it well. Part of the reason we view this shirt so differently might be because you seem to like Alice in Wonderland, while I've been creeped out by it since early childhood :) It was always a story about a kid being tormented, to me.
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agree with slmstanley re: naked women on t-shirts. however, the colors and overall design are very appealing, and i would definitely wear it sans la erotica.
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I read Alice in Wonderland at the age of 6, and I still love it. I studied it as part of my English too. It is creepy, but I think that's part of the reason I love it so much.
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I can honestly say that this is a great design. i can also honestly say that i wouldn't wear it.
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this disturbs me, mainly because our middle/senior school this year is doing wonderland for our musical. i agree that the human body is a beautiful thing, but only when you're mature enough to understand truly its meaning. all i can imagine atm is an 8th grader wearing this tee on stage, and all the parents in the audience being shocked and apalled. alice in wonderland is essentially a children's story, if a little eerie and disturbing, and when people see the term wonderland, they tend to associate it with a sweet muddled troubled young girl, not a veluptuous porn star. i dont think there is really any need for her to be nude. it has no asociation to the story whatsoever. i agree this would look great on a shirt, but consider when you're out and about and other people look at it, esp children. it would be hard for my little cousins to figure out why tweedle dum adn tweedle dee are standing below a massive naked woman.
theres obviously a great deal of controversy about this design. it doesnt mean its any less good, but it means it causes problems and probably wouldnt be all that great to print. i rele like your style however, and i think you should out your talents towards something that doesnt have quite as erotic a subject. |
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I love this design. There definately seems a lot to it. Although, I can't see me wearing it. I don't really understand people that have a problem with the "nudity" of this picture. I didn't even think about it until I read some of the comments (as I think someone else said). Great job, 5.
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I was just trying to give a new twist to the story. No, I am not stupid and didn't know it was a children's story. I knew full well. Do I think this shirt should be worn by kids, absolutely not. Do I think that if you wore this shirt on a subway and a child was on the same train you should you feel bad about corrupting them or even worry, no, I think you guys are giving kids a lot more reasoning power than they use. I am not saying kids are dumb, they are just usually very wrapped up in what is happening to them, not some stranger, and even less what he or she has on. So, to wrap up, 1) don't print this design in kids sizes, 2) don't wear this design when going to babysit your kid sister, 3) if you are going out to a bar, concert, etc, it doesn't matter if there are kids around you, if you are in a place that is usually designated for older people you have no responsibility to protect any kid around, that is where the parent failed. So I hope that makes things clear. I am sympathetic to those who say "what about the children?" but I hope you see my point. You probably have hundreds of t shirts and if this is printed, and you buy one, just maybe think about where you are going that day. I would wear this shirt around my parents (because all of you who think it would be embarrassing, come on, they grew up in that era, they won't be offended) but not my best friends two kids (girls age 10 and 3). Fair enough?
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This shirt is a beautiful design and while I wouldn't wear it, I definetly appreciate it and am not offended by the nudity. Everything is covered! The shirts worn today that have lewd sayings on them or pictures that reveal more then this shirt does can not be considered works of art such as this. I think that the design is brilliant and I love how you worked in the symbols for the book. For everyone saying that children should not be exposed to a design like this a) i don't think that anyone would wear this around children and b) children are exposed to much worse in today's media. Great job on a fantastic print!
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thank you very much
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13Strong:
Morton Cohen's biography (1995) of Lewis Carrol is pretty clear about who he was - a man who had inappropriate intimate friendships with a succession of pre-pubescent girls while remaining curiously celibate himself. Maybe not a paedophile, but certainly he was Michael Jackson enough to raise the question. (Not that I feel this is the main problem here. I honestly didn't think about the paedophilia issue until mjoo raised it.) I have no real problem with the nudity. I don't think I'd be comfortable wearing it, but I certainly wouldn't have a problem with anyone else doing so. The reason I think this doesn't work is that the women is out of proportion. Her left hip is way too big, her right arm is so small it looks like a deformity and there's something not right about the left side of her face. Smitty, I love the concept, but she needs a LOT more work. |
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...and there's no problem with copyright. 13strong is correct; AIW is public domain. Copy away!
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$5, like the use of color, love tweedle dee and dum
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gee thanks frickenawesome for lumping fifteen year olds (and under) into a nice big mold.
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I like the psychedelic retroness of the whole design (like an old Fillmore poster). I like the tweak on Lewis Caroll (whose ideas about who should be nude and when are a LOT more disturbing than this). I like it generally. I'd buy it and wear it.
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I like the design much. Very well done. I am not offended or grossed out by the absence of clothes on Alice. However, I would not wear a naked woman, for fear that some cute girl would walk up to me, se my shirt and make some secret judgment about me. Does that make much sense? No. Do I care to much about what people think about me? No, just cute girls. Am I one of those annoying guys that likes to answer their own questions. Why yes!
I’ll shut up now and give you a five. |
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I am female, and i didnt think about the nudity factor at all before i read the comments. And really i can see both sides of the argument. But overall i think enough people like it to make it popular enough to be printed. And if you dont like it... The dont buy it! But really, you cant pick what other people buy. I would buy it... If fact, i just might if it is printed. I think this is a fabulous piece or art. props to you. $5
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13strong on May 31 '07
helo - not every illustration of naked women is pornographic. This is a clevel illustration which introduces themes of maturity to Alice in Wonderland. It's clever, complex and well-illustrated. For you to give it a 0 is ridiculous - are you saying this has NO artistic merit? None at all? I agree that not every illustration / photo of a naked woman is pornographic. Picasso's use of nudity in Guernica and the photo of Kim Phuc are examples. I'm fine with those since the images are not attempts to stir up the libido. It's when images are used to elicit arousal that I'm offended. I think Threadless would better serve itself by staying away from the pornographic / immodest designs. If Smitty McGillicutty created this only for the eyes of his blonde wife, Alice, to communicate he really enjoys exploring her "Wonderland", then it would be a fine and personal work. But for a t-shirt contest? No. Context and intent are key when it comes to evaluating if presentation of a piece is appropriate. An example : a gynecologist manual in a doctor's office is viewed differently than if its pages were covering the walls at a wine-tasting event. One is acceptable the other is pornographic. My personal scoring scale : 5 = I want to buy it, 4 = quality work & I think others at Threadless will want to buy it, 3 = good work, but needs some tweaks, 2 = average, 1 = bad, 0 = I'm offended (no matter the level of artistic skill involved) |
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eh, i saw this in Abercrombie. and I'm on threadless because I don't like Abercrombie
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You saw this on Abercrombie...and Fitch? A different Abercrombie? I just had a look but saw nothing. What's the link? Are you accusing Smitty of plagiarism or just cross-posting? Or does this just represent a certain cultural style that you don't like?
These are serious claims and you should back them up. |
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Is Crab Rangoon like a crab spring roll??
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(Whoops! Wrong blog!)
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if you are accusing me of stealing this design you better have some pretty damn good evidence.
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if you are saying the style is similar to something found in Abercrombie and Fitch...I am confused, I never saw any shirts like this
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This design is awesome I'd love to wear this shirt. Love the art and the concept
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Somebody had better post a freakin link
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Bramish on Jun 03 '07 $5 I fucking love it!
I don't see how this can cause offence to anyone but the most prude. |
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an example of a Threadless submission with nudity that's not aiming at the crotch
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I really adore this shirt and would buy it without a doubt, you've obviously put in alot of work and its turned out absolutely beautifully. I love Alice in Wonderland and your style of illustration really brings the characters to life! Good job and like I said a $5 for sure. Just sorry the shirt has cause you so much grief with the controversy over it, the price you pay for the sweet joys of t-shirt printing eh! ;)
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I wish helo would put as much time into loosening up as he is putting into justifying his discomfort with the nude form. Ya don't like it. Whatever. I give it $5. Print it.
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ha ha ha
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What I like about it is how provocative it is. It makes me think about all of the alleged stuff in the book that wasn't really for kids! I think this is fantastic: I would buy one for me and one for a friend of mine too.
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Interesting comments and a subject that's near and dear to my heart.
SHIRT CONCEPT: The design works and the color scheme is great. However, the connection to Wonderland is contrived or "crowbarred" in, unless this Wonderland is a bar in Vegas. Alice In Wonderland was an innocent children's story mostly about the effects of the strangled Victorian society (helo, you would like the Victorian Era) on a child's imagination. It's only creepy because dreams tend to be weird and creepy. It's so irritating that people tend to associate the original story with American McGee's game and believe Alice was a crazy person and that the book is about mental illness. I think Dorothy was portrayed locked in an asylum in a sequel to Oz, not Alice. Peter Pan was about fear of growing up, not Alice-sorry Dave Atell, er I mean 13strong - good comments, though. Or that people dwell on issues about the author's allegations which will ALWAYS be conjecture. Plenty of contemporary photographers take nude pictures of all ages and are not pedaphiles. COPYRIGHT: A quick Google seemed to show that publishers only hold the copyright to their version. However, that does not give you the right to profit from John Tenniel's original art. The Mad Hatter is copied exactly. Tweedles are close and the Chesire Cat is influenced from American McGee. Integrity, integrity. NUDITY: Grow up folks, we're not bringing back the Victorian Era. Big so what. Despite how this all sounds, I actually like it :) |
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At this point, I wished I had just thought up some cute little drawing with a unicorn or talking fruit on it, or some slightly varied version of a heart or skull. If this design has taught me one thing it is this: Art is relative. No matter what, even if this piece was a cute panda bear, and even if it was drawn to the best of my ability, someone would say that this is art and the other would say it is crap. Also, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. It doesn't matter if the same message was said by 80 different people ahead of you, if you say it, it must be original. And hey, I am not hear to bash it, please comment, tell me what YOU think of this piece. I really want to know because now it is about speed, ease and comfort. It is easier to throw rocks and question someones morals and integrity when you don't have to face them. Hide behind those computer screens and tell me how terrible I am. How I have no respect for women, how I have created pornographic garbage, (though it really does look good! ;P) and how, even worse, I STOLE the images. Well, keep on keepin' on I guess.
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I think that due to all the controversy, this shirt should be printed. The amount of safe and cute shirts on this site needs a kick in the ass. Every now and then you need to be shocked or offended just like you need to look at something cute or safe. Its a yin and yang. 5 dudes...get over it. And remember kids aren't the only people that wear/see tshirts.
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I do understand this is a charged subject I have depicted. I really do encourage debate on that. But just understand, this is a piece I created, it isn't who I am. If you look at my other designs on this website, can you tell anymore about me?
And, for those of you that sit for hours trying to point out similarities between designers on here and EVERYONE else who has ever created anything, just stop it. I can prove I have done nothing wrong on this OR ANY piece I have ever done. I know this community got burned bad with plagiarism, but it doesn't mean everyone has to be punished for it either. My work is hand done, even if I looked at another piece to create it, it is my work. Side note: Did you know art critics have said that there hasn't been an original piece of art,film, music, etc. created since 1936? |
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5. Again, love the retro rock poster style, the clever integration of all the main characters, and the nudity is a moot point. It's artistic and particularly stunning considering she's not modeled after someone like Milla Jovovich's body style. It's classy.
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Kojima on Jun 03 '07 I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.
Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity. But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition. In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the "unalienable Rights" of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note, insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." |
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I really like the art nouveau style.
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that was a beautiful speech, Kojima, and I think you are arriving at the point that this should be a nation free for speech and expression, but (although I agree with your sentiment) how is this piece a racial issue at all?
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I agree with heyeyitsme and helo.
And kids really don't need to see that kind of thing. Whether or not they care, they don't need to see it. Yes, kids often see bad things on T.V. But I find it faulty logic to say that just because kids see bad things on T.V., it is OK to continue to expose them to such things. It makes me mad that people can have these kinds of opinions. Kids are often more aware of things than adults suspect and they pick up on things and can be affected by things. |
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"Peter Pan was about fear of growing up, not Alice-sorry Dave Atell, er I mean 13strong - good comments, though."
Of course, as a piece of literature, it's open to interpretation, and is therefore about whatever the hell I think it's about. IMO, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is very much about the fear of growing up, and contains a number of metaphors which portray that fear. For example, Alice must be small to enter the beautiful garden through the tiny door, and becomes alarmed and upset by her rapid growth (this is just one example - there are loads, but I don't want to go on and on). Alice, to me, is very much, at least in part, about the sanctity of childhood, and the desire to remain young. And I guess I do look kinda like that Atell guy - I had to look him up though, what with me being an ignorant foreigner. I would address the points about context and immodesty, but what this really comes down to is that some people see this work as pornographic, and some, like myself, see it as artistic and conveying a meaning. A lot of the offense here seems to derive from people's own discomfort with nudity in general, and a sense of what is "modest". In that case, it's not worth trying to convince people otherwise in such a limited forum. Did I mention I gave this a 5? |
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One last thing about the nudity issue: If you look at her crotch, it has the same shading as the Tweedles so she's no more naked than their tight pants. Given that there are no nipples and there is a slight line below the neck, she might be wearing a body stocking. Is that enough to quiet the puritans?
I doubt it. It seems there is a new regime of young parents who believe the best way to make up for their lack of parenting is to sanitize the world for them. I see it in my book projects all the time. Next thing you know, all the classics will be rewritten as kinder gentler tales. The wolf in the 3 little pigs is too scarey, let's make him an angry hamster. |
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This could be awesome, just make it so her face isn't ugly as hell.
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i love this!
$5 |
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Love it! Maybe it's because I played Alice in a school play, back in the day. The caterpillar smoking hookah is fabulous.
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well done holding your own (and then some) 13strong. this is a clever, beautiful, and thoroughly artful design. it's bizarre and distressing to see so many comments that assume something bad will happen to a child if they're exposed to a naked image. i'd like for someone who's concerned about a child being exposed to nudity to explain, without handwaving or assuming that it's simply *obvious* that nudity must be harmful, what the danger is.
kids don't need to see these kinds of things? sure they do, and the more the better. healthy, secure sexuality is best taught the way everything is best taught: through continued exposure to positive, intelligent sources. (and please don't accuse me of anything lewd for that comment.) it's only those who think sexuality is fundamentally wrong that want to "protect" people from it. by making nude forms something terrifying it sends the very clear message that something is deeply shameful in sexuality. that's a harm i'd like to protect a kid from... |
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also: smitty, what art critics said that? and what did they say was the last original artwork?
$5 btw.. |
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Martin Heidegger -1930s art critic said the exact opposite: Art must be considered within the existing and surrounding culture. New art is always original because the dynamic between artist/artwork and artwork/audience is constantly in flux.
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there must be more to his ideas than that.. that seems like a very trite way of defining originality. by reasoning like that you could conclude that every instance of an endlessly repeated piece of artwork is entirely original (sadly i just thought of andy warhol. he did just that. a lot). you're right that you have to at least consider the context when deciding if something is original or not, but concluding that because the context is necessarily always changing new art must be original seems too pat.
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Good point. "New" art in that case would depend on a new dynamic.
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Ellsswhere on Jun 04 '07 what in sweet heaven is going on here... when did this place become "safe" for children. obviously no one has been by the blogs. there is nothing distasteful about this shirt anyways, its actually very modest. please understand that though you may not want to wear this shirt because of the girl you can just as easily click the "skip without scoring" button. THAT is why it is there! 5$
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give me a little bit of time to get that critics name for yo guys, I will search the internet, because I had read it from a book about art. Also I can see both of what my nameless critic was talking about and what seviec is saying. I think the only way to make art "new" is to show a different side of it, or a different perspective.
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I don't get what all the debate is about...its a drawing of a naked woman...a cartoon depiction of a naked woman...big fricking deal! Its a damn good drawing too!
Its not like the guy has shoved a picture of two people at it on there! Good job! |
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Kojima on Jun 04 '07 Smitty, I just copy and pasted a Martin Luther King Jr. speech. I was poking fun at the fact that everyone is giving speeches. I was not criticizing your design, which I think is great.
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Man, I wish no one had pointed out the awkwardness of the woman's body/pose because, other than that, I completely
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Personally, I love this design. I think the artwork is fantastic. And I really don't see how it's so offensive... I mean, little mystique has a point. It doesn't even show the parts of her anatomy that several people are deeply frightened of small children seeing (how absurd it is that people are afraid of the female form and implied nudity!).
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that's cool kojima
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I really like this. It's a nice take on the Alice in Wonderland characters.
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Awesome. Anybody giving a zero on this needs to grow up. You love trees but not the natural beauty of the human form? But I'm not here to make a point, I'm here to give you a $5
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i don't have a problem with the nudity... but where would her nips be? and her right leg looks cut off due to the shadow.
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I love alice in wonderland. and I love everything besides her nudity. I'm not a prude, and I'm not against nudity, and as a future art major, life art is a must and that means full nudity with live models if I'm lucky.
but I wouldn't wear anything nude on a tshirt. even if it was a full blown photo of the creation of adam. it just uh, its tacky according to the fashion rules I live by. |
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I don't like it at all. Female nudity is all too excessive in this culture, and while it does have clever elements, it's basically just another example of sexual exploitation. She's just looks like some buxom whore, and I'm sure it will do well with all the young men on the site who see nothing wrong with women's nude bodies. And No, I'm not some uptight churchgoing feminist airhead. I'm actually agnostic and fed up with all the sexual suggestivity encompassing girls. Enough Already! But In the interest of commercialism, it's brilliant, of course. I mean just look at how long this blog is, You got our attention!
And 13strong, most children, ARE bothered by nudity, and don't need to be seeing sluts on t-shirts at that age. Yeah, let's cement the image of a naked blonde bombshell into the impressionable minds of kiddies everywhere. That'll give them the right idea about women in America. |
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Don't blame him, blame Paris Hilton for kids wanting to be sluts. It's what the media gives them to aspire toward. A t-shirt's not going to change the sexual climate of the world as much as these "role model" celebrities like Lohan, Spears, and Hilton. I'm trying to say I understand why some people don't like it, but I don't think this is the bombshell that's going to ruin the next generation. And anyways, Lewis Carroll wrote the story to apply in different ways for children and adults and have a unique way of appealing to different generations. I still like the design for the most part, and I'd wear it, just maybe not to Disneyland or the local park. I'd wear it under a sportcoat to go bar or casino-hopping any night though. But cheezee, good point on the leg looking cut off. I got too distracted reading some of the debate over this and neglected to notice that. Loses a little credit for me on that. And if kids don't want to see it, they'll turn their heads. I've seen a three year old at Freddie Vs. Jason, I wouldn't say a t-shirt's gonna damage that kid- But the bad parenting and horrendous media idolatry of hollywood whore sure will.
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I love this.
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"Cold Collards on Jun 03 '07
I wish helo would put as much time into loosening up as he is putting into justifying his discomfort with the nude form. Ya don't like it. Whatever..." Cold Collards, Your declaration of me being uncomfortable with the nude form right after I posted a link to this Threadless submission containing a nude form that has me praising the submission in its comments is very funny. Please wake up, Cold Collards - - - - - "Smitty McGillicutty on Jun 03 '07 ...It is easier to throw rocks and question someones morals and integrity when you don't have to face them. Hide behind those computer screens and tell me how terrible I am. How I have no respect for women, how I have created pornographic garbage, (though it really does look good! ;P)..." "I do understand this is a charged subject I have depicted. I really do encourage debate on that. But just understand, this is a piece I created, it isn't who I am. If you look at my other designs on this website, can you tell anymore about me?" I hope you see that my comments were based on your design and that they were not spoken because you designed the piece. I'll be clear, no matter what all your other designs look like, I would have commented just the same. Also, I agree with you that it is much easier for people to attack others since the medium of the Internet removes much of the discomfort that normally comes with confrontation. I think I'm the type of person who would have commented the same if we were in person. I've spoken with family members, friends, and strangers about this issue so this isn't something I've finally decided to jump into because the Internet makes it easier. - - - - - "OnDrawnWings on Jun 03 '07 One last thing about the nudity issue: If you look at her crotch, it has the same shading as the Tweedles so she's no more naked than their tight pants. Given that there are no nipples and there is a slight line below the neck, she might be wearing a body stocking. Is that enough to quiet the puritans?" Are you sure you want to try to push that option ? All you have to do is ask Smitty McGillicutty to find out what he was illustrating. |
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This is now my favourite blog! I love a good debate!
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no helo, I understand, I just wanted to make that point clear to the entire community. I still love this blog. I welcome all of your comments on the work, I just don't want to see anymore comments about the bullshit that this is exploiting the female form, because you should all keep a weathered eye on the horizon for a piece I will be producing soon.
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For the love of god! Its just a t-shirt concept. I hope they print this in lew of the massive controversy.
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i think (having read all this down to here) that i was being too gracious and generous in my first comment when i referred to this design as simply ART and scored it high...i have re-thought my position and decided that it borders more on pornography if it is going on a t-shirt or poster. you know, not much if anything i've ever seen on threadless is truly "high art" (it's mostly commercially driven), so let's cut with the "it's art" excuse for this kind of nudity to be specifically projected onto the public, especially children. although it is visually a nicely worked design, all it stands for, as i'm reading all this discourse, is becoming more and more obscure and confusing. this ART is in line with the kind of posters i've seen when i've stepped into the back room of an auto repair shop (to get my bill!) or such as that. sorry, i doubt it will ever hang in the national gallery. i totally believe in discourse on this site, it is what makes it interesting, although it is my observation that those who are "pro" seeing this kind of design printed really do load their comments with name calling and very shallow arguments, whereas those who are stating other opinions are mostly showing restraint. why such animosity? i don't consider myself puritan, why do those who are so "pro" this design need to argue their case by categorizing any who disagrees as such? i stand by my opinion, and i think all who have defended the eyes of society's children in this blog are indeed right. and i'm NOT talking about the human form being shameful or taking nude fine art out of the museums, i'm talking about finding a more appropriate outlet for such a design and not putting slutty images on shirts (notice i "name called" the image, not the creator of it) and being pretentious enough (Ok, i'm finally using an adjective here!) to try to get it over on the audience as being "high art." again, nothing on threadless is high art. come on, they're just t-shirts for goodness sake. i think some artists on threadless are taking themselves and their art way too seriously. that's just my opinion...
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Here's another obscuring distraction for you, Helo: How do you define the boundary between "high" and "low" art? Is it just commercialism? David, Mona lisa, The Scream, even Guernica have all been made into tee-shirts (the Picasso is one of my faves!).
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Pornography? what the fuck?!!
This is a t-shirt, the purpose behind it is to be stylish and fun to wear, not to induce an erection or whatever. I would never venture to say that this is pornography nor would I say that this is necessarily art, it is a t-shirt and a well designed one at that. And in no way is this shirt directed towards the viewing of children. Yes, if someone wears this in public, children are going to see this, but what is going to happen if they see this? Thier moral compass and inocent minds are not going to be instantaniously flipped inside out and turned perverse from viewing this for a split second. I can see how this is certainly suggestive, but I would not venture to say that this is pornography. |
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Steviec: "high art" is just a phrase i'm using that i think most people in general know what i'm talking about. art, like most things in life, is complicated to categorize, although we try to. where is the border between a fine artist and an illustrator? sometimes gray. there will always be exceptions. personally, i think fine art is driven more from the artist and their intentions, and is not prone to be changed due to the audience's reception or critique, and may take years to be fully understand and appreciated but it will stand the test of time. lots of fine art is for sale, and yes, people do tailor what they produce to the market...ok here's an exception right off from what i first said. to me, Mona Lisa in the Louvre is high art, Mona Lisa on a t-shirt, however well done, is, well, low art in the scheme of things...
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Fair enough on that point. Intention does matter, and the Mona Lisa and all other painted works of art will never have the texture in any kind of reproduction (tee-shirt or print) that can measure up to the original.
I have to disagree with you, however, on the point about audience reception: Isn't that the main indicator for whether art is considered high or low? I have a friend who intends to produce high art but no one else would ever agree. If no one considers it worthy of a quality label at first, can't this change over time as people become more receptive? |
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travioli: i agree with your link about the Afternoon Delight!
as for your comment: Pornography? what the fuck?!! Gee thanks!!! But I'm not the only one who indicated that OPINION! What if I were to say: Stylish and fun to wear? What the fuck?!! The obvious intention or "read" one would get from this image is erotic. I'm not going to argue the fine line between suggestive and pornography, I already, in my previous comment worded it as "it borders more on pornography" |
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For all of you poor misguided souls who are too afraid of your own shadows to summon the courage necessary to be truly tolerant, celebratory of freedom, and cultivate an aesthetic appreciation that isn't dictated to you by the entropic mediocrity of useless people... I direct your attention to the 1976 version of Alice In Wonderland, directed by Bud Townsend and starring Kristine DeBell (who later appeared in such 'legitimate' films as Meatballs). It is my hope that after you've seen this film, you'll have somewhat better... perspective.
This shirt is neither pornography nor "high" art. But I'll buy it and wear it (in front of children, the religious, and the elderly!) just on principle if it'll offend all you little-brains out there. |
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Steviec: Maybe I worded my other comment in a way that confused you, or maybe I am confused at your wording: "I have to disagree with you, however, on the point about audience reception: Isn't that the main indicator for whether art is considered high or low? I have a friend who intends to produce high art but no one else would ever agree. If no one considers it worthy of a quality label at first, can't this change over time as people become more receptive?"
I AGREE, I THINK (!) with what you are saying in that your friend is producing what he considers fine art, but others aren't receiving it as such, but that may change over time (if indeed it proves worthy)... I said in my comment previously that I believe fine art STANDS UP over the test of time...when I stated "i think fine art is driven more from the artist and their intentions, and is not prone to be changed due to the audience's reception or critique, and may take years to be fully understand and appreciated but it will stand the test of time" I think we're in agreement!!?? What I meant was that the artist DOES NOT depart from their INTENTION because of current negative feedback. Look at Van Gogh. Hey I'm getting tired, hope I clarified my previous comment. |
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maybe if I died tomorrow and this was the last piece I created it would be considered high art.
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The reason why his art is so famous now is not due to his death.
Have to disagree with you on that one |
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Unless you were joking.
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But if you weren't....
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I was
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would make a pretty cool print.
lmk if this doesn't get printed |
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and by print, I mean poster
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HeyHey: Nice work! I need to read your posts more carefully! You've earned a rest!
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I am pleased that the designer actually reads these comments and participates in this discussion. So to Smitty McGillicuty, I do not question your designing talent or moral standing, but I'm seriously disturbed to see you say: "I just don't want to see anymore comments about the bullshit that this is exploiting the female form, " Bullshit? What I said is Bullshit? I think not. Just because you disagree and we have different ways of perceiving images such as the one you made, doesn't make what I said bullshit. I made a valid argument that I do not stand alone on, you just don't see it.
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It is not necessarily what you said, rasputina, that I am referring to as bullshit. However, the sentiment of what you were saying, since you brought it up, was however a bit offensive to me. I didn't use the nude female form to exploit it. I used it to celebrate it. I think women are the most beautiful things on this planet, not just in appearances, but in spirit. Women have an essence about them that make grown men fall to their knees, they can start and end wars with a glance. It is this romantic ideal that I live by. Women are precious in all shapes, sizes and ages and if the women that have commented on this piece see it as an exploitation of women, I am sorry. It was intended to show a beautiful young woman, reaching maturity, through adversity, and being proud and confident in herself.
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not to mention, alice, the main character of the piece was female.
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is Alice holding something in her left hand? sorry, just was looking more closely at that hand and it is hard to make out at the viewable screen size exactly how this hand is drawn or whether she's holding something. it doesn't look quite right for some reason...do you have a link for a larger version?
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honestly, I have no where to link it to, she is holding nothing, but there is a good deal of shadowing on her hands
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I dont have a problem with nudity but I wouldnt normally wear it....THIS I would wear. It's awesome. Extremely well done. :) $5
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Orange~On~Orange on Jun 05 '07 Wow I can't believe there is such a debate about this. It's a well crafted image which draws on sensibilities from Art Noveau poster designs which were popular 20 years after the publishing of the book. If Victorians (people who wouldn't show their ankles in public for fear of being too scandalous) were comfortable with this imagery in their contemporary advertising culture, then why now, over 100 years later are we debating the same style of design as being inappropriate for public viewing? Seems kind of ridiculous to me.
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orange on orange: i am familiar with art noveau style, although i don't ever recall seeing a nude in a poster from the original era...please enlighten me, perhaps you could supply some titles of specific posters with the nudes, or send links to images found on-line. thanks!
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http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Sea-Serpents-IV-Posters_i318051_.htm
http://www.allposters.com/-sp/The-Three-Ages-of-Woman-c-1905-detail-Posters_i308991_.htm http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Sea-Serpents-III-Posters_i318050_.htm http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Salon-des-Cent-Posters_i376832_.htm http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Music-Posters_i1652313_.htm not nude but topless http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Judith-Posters_i403271_.htm http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Waverly-Cycles-Posters_i376378_.htm not nude, but suggestive http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Bare-Breasted-Woman-Posters_i320084_.htm http://the-antique-shop.com/inventory/posters/fleurs.htm http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Gladiator-Cycles-Posters_i975597_.htm here are a few examples of nudes in the art nouveau period. Some of them are "high art" others are only partiall nude, but I hope this helps show a few examples, now this is not to say the VAST majority of work from that time was nude, but it is just a few examples. |
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Present for you, WalkingAlong!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Michelangelos_David.jpg :D I understand what you mean but way back when, it was the male form that was considered most beautiful. It's just time and society. I don't see what's wrong with appreciating the female form in the meantime - you say you only don't like it because of another aspect that is quite unrelated and in my eyes that's a bit silly. I love the original design - I'm not sure if I'd wear it but I also have Money Shot so I think I'd buy it anyway. 5$ from me! Lovely work. |
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love it... only wish you put the march hare on the one of the cards as he is always paired with the mad hatter. perhaps the same card (A) with a different suit.
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melh696 on Jun 05 '07 it think it is beautifully done.
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Aren't T-Shirts just posters with sleeves? Never mind nice work.
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Alice in Wonderland is a story about drugs. What the hell. Why is everyone freaking out about the "nudity" (which is covered up). I see this as a new take on the story, how adults see it for real. When you are a kid it's fun and crazy but when you get older you realize, "Holy crap, this story is creepy."
I love it. 5! |
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I would also like to add that I grew up in Europe, saw nudity all the time, was taught about sex and the human body at a very young age, and I turned out fine. I am glad, because I know girls who started having sex at 13 but had no idea what everything down there was about. I doubt a shirt like this is going to cause a young child severe mental harm. What WILL cause harm is saying to your child, "Oh no, don't look, that's bad." You want to teach them to be ashamed of their beautiful natural form?
But I guess it's not surprising that this freaks people out, especially Americans. That's what happens when your country is founded by a group of stingy Puritans. |
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what she (puzzleattack) said
i love it! alice grows up. it never ceases to amaze me what will offend people on this site, a hint of a breast, a flash of skin, thighs even, and everyones inner nanna surfaces. it is especially wierd when this comes from the country that bought you the flesh bearing antics and sexual innuendo of lame ass singers like nelly, snoop dogg, paris and britney. you can look but dont even think about thinking or touching. LAME. fiver and buyer from me |
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Once upon a time a girl named Kim saw this design. She thought the colors were handled marvelously, especially the shiny and dull blue bits. But while she felt that the content was and is an interesting choice for sure and that the design is very successful in that it keeps the eye moving about, she was fairly certain that it's not something she would wear as is...but would reconsider if the Alice's anatomical issues were resolved as she felt her posture was semi-awkward. She gave it a 3. The end.
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Alice in Wonderland is not about drugs. I mean, unless you think it is. haha
Just because something is trippy, doesn't mean it's about drugs. |
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The score of this design could be ANYTHING!!
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"steviec on Jun 04 '07
Here's another obscuring distraction for you, Helo: How do you define the boundary between "high" and "low" art? Is it just commercialism? David, Mona lisa, The Scream, even Guernica have all been made into tee-shirts (the Picasso is one of my faves!)." If this is somehow related to Smitty McGillicutty's design I'll answer it here, but if it's another topic lets make a blog and discuss it there. If heyheyitsme gave you a satisfactory answer, then I guess that's that and there's no need for me to respond. |
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Ok, this goes out to all those who are claiming this is
not pornography. What standards, guides, definition of pornography are you using to determine your conclusion ? Feel free to use the dictionary. |
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the colors work great, very nice tee. would make a intense poster as well.
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what's all the fuss about, its just a nice pic on a shirt... i give it a 2.5
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Well, I have read some stuff about Alice in Wonderland being influenced by drugs, and it is up for toss just like the mental illness, pedophilia, etc. issues. Who really knows haha. But I guess the point I was making is Alice in Wonderland is a strange, chaotic story so it's not really a big deal (for me) to see it portrayed this way.
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helo, while I personally don't think this looks like pornography, I think people are reacting to the impossible position Alice is in. A woman cannot stand that way without falling, and the fact that physiology was ignored in favor of placing a nude woman in a sexually suggestive position (the hip, dude, it juts! too! far!)... Well, I see where those people are coming from.
(My main issue with this shirt has always been Alice's physical structure, which I believe to be inaccurate. I have a secondary issue with the fact that Alice is supposed to be a little girl, but that did not in any way affect the way I scored this, as I acknowledge that is my own issue, not the shirt's.) |
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sick- i love the cheshire cat in the background
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porno to me is something that has sexual arousal as its primary purpose. this means that the more obvious, derogatory, or obnoxious something involving sexual elements is the more likely it is to be considered pornography. obviously there's going to be (can be) no clear line drawn between risque art and porn, but in the lasting words of justice potter stewart, "i know it when i see it."
i think you'd be pretty hard up to make a serious case that the primary purpose of that t-shirt was to inspire arousal. discretion in what was and wasn't revealed stands against it, the art style and care taken in its creation stand against it, and so does the fact that it's a clever take on a famous piece of literature. if you don't accept my definition of porno none of that really applies, but it seems like a good one to me. some bare skin doesn't make it porno. neither does a provocative pose - especially when it's looked at in the context of alice in wonderland. |
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and i'm still waiting for somebody (anybody) to tell me what harm comes of a child being exposed to nude pictures. you don't get the luxury of just assuming it to be *obviously* harmful.
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Thanks for your response, the manatee. I think your definition is too broad
and could be used to describe a fully clothed woman waving a condom in front of a man. The definition I'm using is " the presentation of sexual behavior that is intended to arouse sexual excitement in its audience ". This design has a pretty nude woman with her arms spread open. Even if it's primary purpose isn't to arouse, presenting her in such a manner certainly was to arouse. amaliaslash, plaid-duckie, BrandonB11, travioli, Vespucci, mj00, or anyone who doesn't think this design is pornography . . . . . .What standards, guides, definition of pornography are you using to determine this isn't pornography ? |
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but your definition is far, far broader than mine. by following your reasoning anything that elicits arousal in someone is to be considered pornographic with respect to that person. now some people have some pretty sensitive sexual inclinations, and some odd fetishes. does this mean that a picture of a woman on a beach in a bathing suit is pornographic? what about a fully clothed woman whose ankles are exposed? whose feet are being massaged by someone else? or massaged by her (maybe after a long day's work)? what about an ordinary picture of a healthcare worker (alright alright.. a nurse) wearing latex gloves? is the ballet pornographic?
or do you mean anything that was created in spite of the fact that the author knows it's likely that it will create arousal in some of the people exposed to it? all art even sniffing around sex would then become pornographic. i dispute that one of the main purposes of drawing the "grown-up" alice in a provocative pose was to arouse. why the restraint, if that's the case? and even if it does engender arousal in some people, that's not sufficient to categorize it as pornographic with broad strokes. "intended" is too clumsy a word in your definition. primary intent, and acknowledgement of possibility are both encompassed in it, making it far too broad and unwieldy. |
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read the definition again...
" the presentation of sexual behavior that is intended to arouse sexual excitement in its audience " A woman standing nude toward someone, with her arms spread wide, smiling at the person, and her hips are shifting to be noticed is in a posture to elicit arousal. Ask any prostitute. C'm0n, the manatee |
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I'm using the definition I found on the Answers.com for pornography
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por·nog·ra·phy /pɔrˈnɒgrəfi/ Pronunciation Key - [pawr-nog-ruh-fee]
–noun obscene writings, drawings, photographs, or the like, esp. those having little or no artistic merit. Books, photographs, magazines, art, or music designed to excite sexual impulses and considered by public authorities or public opinion as in violation of accepted standards of sexual morality. American courts have not yet settled on a satisfactory definition of what constitutes pornographic material. (See obscenity.) maybe this will help...also I had always learned that Alice in Wonderland was a political satire on the British monarchy? Is that wrong? |
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this is two of many from dictionary.com
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and by the way, helo, I really enjoy your commentary on this piece, but what is your purpose on this blog. Are you trying to change people's minds?
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the naked dude would be a good idea
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MrDomino on Jun 05 '07 I don't really read this as a satire of anything, though. I guess that's what bothers me, conceptually it's fairly shallow. The execution has some high points, I like how you integrated all the the layers. The transition of the caterpillar's smoke into the cloth strip is very nice, but on the whole it feels quite rushed to me. If the image of woman is to be the central focus of the piece, it should certianly be given more attention than it has been. It seems more like an assortment of mismatched parts than one figure.
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My first statement :
"helo on May 31 '07 I'm tired of the attempts to mainstream porno -- a zero from me" then some people claim this isn't porno So I'm just not letting their challenges go by |
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that's cool, helo.
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Smitty McGillicutty,
Thanks for your response. I really don't like to use standards that are based on public opinion. So using your definition, if sometime in the future NAMLBA is ever accepted in a culture and the woman in your design was replaced with a naked black man and naked white boy with shadows on their crotches, retitled as "The Southland", and surrounded by edgy images from "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn", would it be considered porno ? Since the design would not violate "accepted standards of sexual morality" of "public authorities or public opinion" then that culture would not consider it porno when it is obviously porno. That's why I don't like definitions based on public opinion. I have no idea if it's wrong that the story of Alice attacks the British monarchy. |
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ISABOA on Jun 05 '07 i cant see! I cannot read all this and it pisses me off, the only thing i got was that helo, buddy - I love you man but I am confused about your issue? But again I cannot read - and everyone just listen to Kojima -
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by the way, Smitty, I just looked through your
other designs and I wanted to say you definitely have talent. You think outside of the box "Chest of Drawers", incorporate humor "The Age of NonBelieving", and have good illustration skills "Cherry Blossoms". So after all my negative comments have piled up due to this design I don't want you to think I'll be waiting to attack your future designs. I'm just bothered by this one. You did mention/implied that we should expect another one from you even more intense than this design so I'll do my best to let it roll off my back and await your future designs that will rock my world in an enjoyable way. You've developed a great attitude through all of this and I appreciate it. |
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ISABOA, lotsa love to you too, man, and to
everyone. I've got no bad feelings toward anyone even if they said I'm an idiot, ignorant, immature, belong in the Victorian era, or need to grow up, etc. . . I hope your computer lets you read it all so you can see what others are saying. It's too much to try to summarize the mammoth pile of comments. |
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Smitty, thanks for the Art Noveau links, now I'm more familiar with examples than before, I admit I was familiar but more limited...that said, I don't think your work compares to these works exactly, but that's my opinion. I stand by my position!
He"l"o, you're my He"r"o of the day! Like all your logical comments, fully agree. Yay!!!! And now for a funny story! Last night an 18 year old male in our household, who will remain "anonymous(!)" came in my office and I said, hey look at this one on Threadless, what do you think about this? It has 176+ comments and I've been in on it awhile. Well, this teen, who does what he wants, watches what he wants, yada yada (certainly not a prude)...glanced over and shrugged and said basically that although it was a naked woman he wasn't bothered by it...I asked if he thought it was pornography and he said not really...I said OK...he left the room to watch TV and about 5 minutes later, on his own volition(!!!...(hear me on this one:)...came back in the room and said (Mom)...did that say "Wonderland???" I could see the lightbulb going on in his mind...he looked at it MORE CLOSELY and laughed, saying, that's the Cheshire Cat...uh...yeah...that's pornography. I rest my case... |
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isaboa, I am in the same boat, my eyes keep crossing this is so dizzying. People: I give you a virtual high five if you like it, if not, that is cool too, but please I am begging you, drop the porn theory. If you think it is porn great, if you don't think it is porn great. I don't care anymore. With that said, check out a piece I have in crit right now. It may just as well stir up controversy, but I hope not...I am so tired...
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P.S. Is it possible that somehow a percentage of us in this debate could come to a more middle of the road position...as in this is not "hard core" pornography but somewhere on the lower end of the continuum, being highly suggestive, basically "some form" of porn? I had worded it that way before, "borders on porn"...I mean it could be categorized to death, just how porno is it...but, if I have to call a spade a spade I will. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and vote, and mine is as I first stated...make it a poster or something that the public can PURPOSE to obtain and view...my opinion is it doesn't belong on a tee that some kid might see on the guy behind the counter at the local game store. Hey, I'm no prude, I took my kids to art museums throughout their life, we saw lots of nudes, statues, etc. We watch movies with nudity, yada yada...The operative word is, as a parent, "I took them"...I selected, I discussed, etc.
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http://www.threadless.com/critique/3829/Sea_Dragon
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what, did I scare you guys away? Come on heyhey, there has to be some other aspect to this piece you find blog worthy?
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Smitty,
It's hard to stop people from talking about something in a public forum that has them stirred up and since right now you don't care what's being said, maybe it would be best to take a break from this design. just a suggestion Thanks, heyheyitsme. I appreciate your kind words. |
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its not that im offended i just would never think of wearing it and so i don't really care too much for the design, also, i think you could have chosen better colors, but good try :) ill give it.... a 3 :) its done well, even if i don't like it :)
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mezo on Jun 06 '07 That girl uses too many "quotes".
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haha i'm back. this thread is like crack.
helo, i think you've unintentionally defined sexual behaviour as basically any depiction of a human being. imagine a picture of a woman, fully clothed, but with kneehigh leather boots. or bare feet. or a woman licking her lips. or doing anything else that could be understood as sexually suggestive. there's no motion on the t-shirt. no real "behaviour." there's just a pose, the same as many other poses i could think of - some more, and some less provocative. according to your definition, these things - all of them, and many more besides - are porn. i think that's an indication that your definition needs some tightening. the context matters so much. it's not enough to just say "there's a human form engaged in some form of behaviour that i believe to be illicit. therefore this is pornography." the sophistication of the artwork has to play in somewhere, the intent, the feel of the thing. is it softcore porn? maybe, but softcore blends seamlessly into art with increasing sophistication. i thought this was a clever design, and that it exercised restraint in its depiction of alice - it was enough to give the impression of adult lust and lasciviousness, of innocence gone, but not graphic enough to be distasteful. in my opinion, not graphic enough to cross the tracks to pornland lol good debate, and have a good night |
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mezo on Jun 06 '07 If this were pornography, her legs would be spread & not her arms. There would also be a donkey present.
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and a chimpanzee throwing his semen!
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I shall abandon this PRON issue!!
Basically, I think it just needs work on her body. I know you have heard it out the whazzoo by now. Her face could be more delicate, maybe more Greek-esque. Then you could go for the whole contraposto thing, and that would probably fix her body proportions, since it is a natural pose. And maybe she could have one of her hands lowered, and holding one of those rude flowers! Or a mushroom. Or the vile of drink that made her big. Many choices! Anyway, I see lots of potential in this design. I hope you can rework it and get it printed, besides all the controversy! |
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Aside from all the in depth critique - would it make me look fat? Possibly, but I'd still buy it!
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$5
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if it had guns crossed over her chest and a pile of money stuck to her lap would certain threadless nuts accept it then?
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Wow, what a sh*tstorm.
I love Alice, great story. I love this design, great colors & look. I would totally wear this; 5$ |
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hahhahahahaa mezo you crack me up! =)
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What is the record for most comments on a design blog?
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helo, this is my design as the little orange arrow dictates, so this is kinda my blog. I won't be abandoning it thank you. Also to address the proportions issue. They are cheated, but mostly correct. Yes she is turned in such a way to look less straight up and down, the arms are longer than need be, but, I don't really want to change it again, this was in crit for a week and no one that has said it has problems here came to see it there. I definitely WILL NOT be resubbing this, but if it wins, I will correct the proportions before I give it to Threadless. So I guess the moral is: VISIT THE CRIT SECTION AND SUPPORT PEOPLE!!!!!
http://www.threadless.com/critique/3829/Sea_Dragon |
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I was wondering that too travoli, I have to be close, right?
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very cool - but can't wear it. 5 - but no buy. :(
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Jemae on Jun 06 '07 Nude No More! 5$ for the awesome illustration! =)
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Point conceded, Smitty.
*hops off to the crits* |
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WOW! I love it. I just hope they don't print women's sizes in black otherwise I def would buy.
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Definately. If nothing else, the shear ammount of comments on this will probably catch somebody at threadless's eye.
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design submission with the most comments ( I think ) = British T-Rex ( over 1,300 comments right now )
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Smitty I didn't mean to sound like you should abandon your blog.
Sorry if I did. I meant you might do well to take a break from it. One of your comments said it was cool that I was taking on people who said this wasn't porno and then you posted another comment begging people to drop the porn theory. So I wasn't sure where you were coming from and thought maybe all you needed was a break/rest. - - - - - - "mezo on Jun 06 '07 If this were pornography, her legs would be spread & not her arms. There would also be a donkey present." mezo, I'm offended you dragged the Democratic party into all this ;) |
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yeah, I am kinda run down by it, I just thought this up and thought it might do well on here, it is kind of a different style from what people are used to, I just didn't expect all of this. And I think the porn thing is a mute point, there is really nowhere else it can go, hell we went to the dictionary, you know you have argued too long when you look up shit.. But I value your opinions...so here I am.
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but to link the seemingly contrasted comments. I don't mind commentary, but I think the porn talk has run its course, I was more just referring to talking about anything else. I want discourse, just not about porn anymore.
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What I find interesting is the declaration that this might be pornography. To me, whatever pornography is, it is devoid of artistic value, or has no real meaning beyond its attempts to arouse. This is quite blatantly not the case here, in the sense that plenty of people on this board find meaning in this design, or artistic merit above the erotic elements.
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I want to respond to the manatee and 13strong,
but I don't want to walk all over your wishes, Smitty. So if anyone wants to keep discussing this, my e-mail is on my profile page. |
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2.4 that's pretty good.
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That IS a good score. I'm impressed.
I guess people just love pornography! haha |
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eh, I am a little dissappointed
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it did ok
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13, are you really going to email helo?
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Smitty - 2.4 is a good score, and Ts get printed on lower scores. Don't be disheartened - considering the response you've had here, I think that's a DAMN good score. Shows that most people loved your design.
Now, let's see the naked dude. And no, I dunno if I can be bothered emailing Helo about this. Maybe if he sets up a blog on the topic. Considering the scoring is now finished, I don't see why we couldn't discuss these issues here. |
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I am thinking up something now involving a naked man, I just want it to have as great a concept. Anyway, I have one in the sub process now that I think should do well, it might be controversial as well, but we will see. Also working on something now that should hit the crits today.
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yeohgh on Jun 10 '07 i missed to score your design, I will score 5!!!
i am totally LOVE it, great work and nice colour, 2.4 is a bit low, but i am sure this going to get printed!!! PLS! welldone! Smitty McGillicutty |
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Hey, Smitty! 2.4 is well done indeed!
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i hope this gets printed! i would SO buy it! i'm really not worried about what other people think of me wearing a T like that in public if it were printed.
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well, we will see. Today I will maybe be revealing my nude male piece. I promised I would so I will deliver!
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P R I N T
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This is awesome, shame it didn't win. Think theres too many little kids on this site.
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^ Or it could be the other way around: too many adults who don't want to corrupt their kids.
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Now, I have a mostly naked picture of Janis Joplin on my desk, and I'm 19, and straight. I think nudeness is beautiful, and encouraging people to accept their bodies and nudeness may just be a good thing. Nude people should not be as taboo as everyone makes it in this country. I'm tired of people shrieking when they see an image of an African woman with her entire chest exposed. It is much more bizarre to see women now a days with their fake tans and their fake breasts. You covered her, you gave her curves and aimed it towards another audience. Good for you!
Also, the box frame makes it look almost vintage for me. I approve! |
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