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isaacdealey
isaacdealey aka Isaac Dealey is a 35.11 year old boy, has been a member since February 2, 2008, has scored 619 submissions, giving an average score of 1.95.
  Feb 26 '08 by isaacdealey        43 Comments        Watch this      Share:  Share on facebook    Share on delicious    Share on digg    Share on MySpace    Tweet this    Stumble this    Share this on Kaboodle   
These are my thoughts on something ginetteginette said in a comment on the Sexy Irony submission.

She said: "you can be imaginative and while still following design rules. if you're going to have a certain standard of photo-realism you have to abide by those laws or else the design will look lazy/unfinished/or poorly thought out. it just looks wrong."

I gather that Southorn is coming from a more traditional art background, rather than a modern design background (I apologize if that's a bad assumption)...

Art history is replete with these sorts of comments about "following the rules" being made by critics and yet the movements and the art itself persist and grow in spite of the criticism. Pointilism was originally ridiculed -- now it's called "half-toning" (and used in a lot of the Threadless prints partly due to printing limitations surrounding color depth and gradients, though it is occasionally done for the effect of recreating the circa 1950's comic-book illustration style which used a lot of halftones for the same reasons).

Art movements themselves don't happen very often - the most recent one that I can think of is Manga / Anime, the dominance of Japanese comic/cartoon styles, which themselves include one particular sub-style ("super deformed") in which the characters are deliberately drawn with absurd proportions.

Super-deformed style is a pretty extreme example of deliberate deviation from "photo-realism" for the purpose of an artistic effect, but certainly not the only one and many of them have been far less overt. The Greeks at one time were very concerned with "realism" in their sculpture for a while, until they created the Kritios Boy which was exceptionally realistic. After Kritios however they moved away from realism, for example, classical statues of athletes have removed the tail-bone and feature a deep groove in the chest not generally found on real people (at least not usually without steroids). :)

Then there are the impressionists and several post-impressionist movements. Although something like cubism is obviously not intended to be photo-realistic, there's no boundary between cubism and more realistic art, it's more of a spectrum with cubism at one end and realism at the other. In the middle are all sorts of variations which have been popular or unpopular dependent upon the crowd of people viewing them and whatever happens to be in vogue at the time. Matisse and Van Goh created images that were "accurate" in some ways and then strangely disproportionate in others. (Check out the difference between Dr. Gachet's hands, or the fact that he seems to have a lazy eye.)

Whether or not it will be popular as a t-shirt design is a whole other ball of wax. Most famous artists were pretty poor during their lifetimes (as far as I know). Jackson Pollock was an alcoholic who gave away one of his paintings for a case of beer. If his work had been popular while he was alive, he'd have probably been able to get a lot more beer for it. :P

For the record, I personally don't find Sexy Irony very sexy or very ironic. That's not a jab at the artist, just my honest opinion. I'm sure people have similar opinions about a lot of my work and they're just as entitled.

I'm still not going to rate it zero -- I reserve that for designs that either offend me (which is pretty difficult to accomplish) or where I feel the work shows a combined lack of both effort and skill in both the areas of concept and execution. I.e. there was no effort to create a concept and no effort or skill in creating the image. If the image shows either an attempt at concept or any amount of effort in the illustration, I'll give it at least a 1.

In this case although it's "not to my taste", there seems to be an effort on the part of the artist to create a unique concept and the image itself appears to have been originally painted, which ain't the easiest or cheapest thing in the world to do, so that meets my criteria for a minimum 1 score. I won't say what I'm going to rate it (my vote won't have much impact anyway), I just wanted to mention that it would be above zero.

Anyway, that's enough of my jazz... I now return you to your regularly scheduled t-shirt voting. :)

ike

mezo
   mezo on Feb 26 '08 at 11:58pm
The artist seems pretentious like whoah...that influences my score most negatively.
amaliaslash
amaliaslash on Feb 27 '08 at 12:00am
What about the history of design?? Design and art are NOT synonyms.
mezo
   mezo on Feb 27 '08 at 12:02am
Rodenchenko was a cool guy.
amaliaslash
amaliaslash on Feb 27 '08 at 12:03am
I friggin looooove Walter Gropius, and more for his name, less for his Bauhaus creation.
Jackanapes mk.II
Jackanapes mk.II on Feb 27 '08 at 12:03am
I hug Amalia.
KBShakedown
KBShakedown on Feb 27 '08 at 12:03am
So that entire rant was to tell us you won't be giving that submission a zero?
isaacdealey
isaacdealey on Feb 27 '08 at 12:07am
"So that entire rant was to tell us you won't be giving that submission a zero?"

Nope. Was just sharing my thoughts in depth because I've got a bunch of time to kill before an early morning plain flight for a non-art job interview. The not giving a zero comment was an afterthought because I happened to be here writing the blog.
d3d
   d3d on Feb 27 '08 at 12:09am
the sub reminds me of Francis Bacon. kind of fleshy but hardly realistic. rules shmules.
KBShakedown
KBShakedown on Feb 27 '08 at 12:13am
Okay, well I don't think there are rules of design, so much as principles. They are not always mandatory in every scenario, but they are guidelines that have been proven effective consistently.

As far as the quote, "you can be imaginative and while still following design rules. if you're going to have a certain standard of photo-realism you have to abide by those laws or else the design will look lazy/unfinished/or poorly thought out. it just looks wrong."

That part about maintaining a level of realism throughout a piece is bullshit. Look at an artist like Alphonse Mucha, who combines realistic faces and figures with far less realistic, two-dimensional backgrounds. And it is still an effective method.
isaacdealey
isaacdealey on Feb 27 '08 at 12:29am
Really surprised at the sudden flood of comments on this... I'd rather expected it to go relatively unnoticed.

mezo: I can appreciate that. I try not to give a whole lot of weight to my opinion of a person's attitude (though I'm sure it does influence my decisions), partly because I don't feel it's really germane -- I think Andy Dick is an asshole, but I was a big fan of News Radio. Though I don't generally spend much time watching actors when they're not acting (interviews, etc.) I enjoy their movies irrespective of how I feel about their behavior off-camera. Same thing here, I'd rather have a cool shirt than see someone not get printed just because I think they're pompous. Though this design doesn't seem to be very popular.

amaliaslash: Entitled to your opinion certainly ... With the exception of the purely functional (a ruler for example), I have yet to see a 2-d design that I felt didn't incorporate any art. And the comments that ginetteginette made weren't really about the non-art aspects of design, they were about the art-aspects. Having or not having a "standard of photorealism" is an aspect of the art, not the functional design of the shirt.
isaacdealey
isaacdealey on Feb 27 '08 at 1:19am
Anybody else think Bruce Willis looks like Picasso?
againstbound
   againstbound on Feb 27 '08 at 11:38am
i agree that in art there are no rules , all hail Dada! but lots of people seem to shiled themselves in that, the feel ike they can get away with a poorly drawn image just by calling it art, but i think most of the times it's pretty obvious if you're truly doing that because thats what you want or because you just cant do better

for example tak Miro and Mondrian, Miro's Blues/Constellations and Mondrian's Neoplastic works are among my faorite paintings, and they lack the intrincated work of lets say Dali, Escher or earlier ones like Goya, Bosch, etc, but still you cn notice their sense of composition and aesthetic is flawless and they shouldn't by any means be look down upon

as for sexy irony goes i think the author is way too pretentious, nad the way he/she (?) describes the design just doesn't lure you into giving it a higher score
staffell
staffell on Feb 27 '08 at 11:45am
the tshirt's shit, simple as that
tesco
   tesco on Feb 27 '08 at 11:53am
'this is pure beauty'

less jibber jabber, stick to canvas, tldr etc
ISABOA
   ISABOA on Feb 27 '08 at 11:58am
dirty hippie say wha?
againstbound
   againstbound on Feb 27 '08 at 11:59am
mmm, am i the dirty hippie?
staffell
staffell on Feb 27 '08 at 12:01pm
HAHA
Torakamikaze
   Torakamikaze on Feb 27 '08 at 12:01pm
lol @ hand painting every shirt
ISABOA
   ISABOA on Feb 27 '08 at 12:03pm
I speak of southorn -
Southorn
Southorn on Feb 27 '08 at 12:14pm
It is so funny that you all think I am pretentious. My close friend LG painted this image and I loved it so much I asked her if I could put it on a shirt. She agreed. I guess that is why you all think I am talking about myself when I am actually giving my close friend a complement. Regardless, you shouldn't be so lame when it comes to people liking their own art. Not everyone has to loath themselves to be taken seriously.
againstbound
   againstbound on Feb 27 '08 at 12:15pm
i though i was a special dirty hippie u_u
Torakamikaze
   Torakamikaze on Feb 27 '08 at 12:18pm
It is also so funny that no where on your design does it state that the art is not yours, and no credit is given to the actual artist, and we're supposed to some how know all that. That is so funny.
Southorn
Southorn on Feb 27 '08 at 12:21pm
The painting is clearly signed LG at the bottom right.
Torakamikaze
   Torakamikaze on Feb 27 '08 at 12:22pm
and yet you clearly state:
Southorn on Feb 27 '08
I am not ashamed of liking my designs. If you don't like it, don't look at it. Shesh! Someone has to break the lame rules you have all set.


againstbound
   againstbound on Feb 27 '08 at 12:24pm
Southorn on Feb 27 '08
No I am not going to do that. Boundaries need to be pushed. I am not going to conform to your ways just so I will be accepted. COME ON! Every shirt in this place is looks like it has a mathematical equation associated with it. How about painting/coloring outside the lines.


golden
ladrones
   ladrones on Feb 27 '08 at 12:25pm
i think the only true design rule, and this can even be broken if done right.

is your image has to exist in a universe.
if it makes sense in its little universe.
and matches with itself then it can make sense.

i think thats the only time i think a design has falied.
when it doesnt match itself and it doesnt know what it is.

thats how you make design choices, you come up with
what your going for and you go for it.

the image reffered to works perfectly in that reguard.
i dont know if his person has time traveled form some ancient art period, but realism has be out for years.
its been done. hundreds of years ago. its over and boring.

lets create our own universe
ISABOA
   ISABOA on Feb 27 '08 at 12:26pm
I really think there is a future in post screening pork appliqué

againstbound
   againstbound on Feb 27 '08 at 12:28pm
lets create our own universe

fuck yeah man!

"There are other worlds, but they are in this one."
-Eluard
Southorn
Southorn on Feb 27 '08 at 12:34pm
Now ladrones has the right idea. Thanks for your input man.
She Says So
She Says So on Feb 27 '08 at 12:50pm
She Says So
She Says So on Feb 27 '08 at 12:51pm
She Says So
She Says So on Feb 27 '08 at 12:51pm
She Says So
She Says So on Feb 27 '08 at 12:51pm


You can't polish a turd.
Southorn
Southorn on Feb 27 '08 at 12:57pm
that looks like one of those fake poos you can buy in a joke store
She Says So
She Says So on Feb 27 '08 at 12:58pm
i think it probably is?
squirrel67
squirrel67 on Feb 27 '08 at 12:59pm
You've been called out for a fake turd. It's glossy, perhaps someone polished it?
MrDomino
   MrDomino on Feb 27 '08 at 1:40pm
Obviously I can't speak for ginette, but I think I see her point. There are a lot of rules in all artforms, and they are there for a reason. They are there to establish a thought process in the early stages of your education, to give you boundaries so you know why certain decisions are made. It's not all that different from creating a moral structure for children. We all have basic examples when we are young, but these examples to not apply directly to the greater world (or do they? That's another discussion…) so as we grow as people so does our morality evolve. As mature artists and designers, we must break rules and conventions. We must ply new waters and cut our own paths, forcefully if necessary. BUT, we must do so for a reason. This I, would argue, is the only rule of art:

Decide what you want to say. Say it. Add nothing that is not necessary to what you want to say. All that you use should relate directly to what you are saying, to the smallest detail.

Even "happy accidents" are deliberate because the artist decides to keep those mistakes as they are integral to the expression of concept. In this sense I agree quite completely with Tesco, Mezo, Gingette and everyone else. This sub is very clearly not intended to be a shirt. It's very clearly a poor port of a photograph that is very lazily cropped to fit on an unpleasant tee frame. To expect us to know anything about the original, or immediately appreciate anything other than what is in front of us is just sloppy, perverse, and pretentious.

I don't care if a print sells for $8000 on canvas, the way it was presented it looks awful. I wouldn't buy it that way for $10. Being an artist is also about communicating ideas, you can't get mad as us if we don't like what you create. We had very little hand in its creation.
ISABOA
   ISABOA on Feb 27 '08 at 1:46pm
well put Mr. Domino


and here I was just gonna recount the Buffy episode where they go to college and run into a troop of co-ed killing vamps who had a stash of klimt kiss paintings piled up to the ceiling from their victims -
mezo
   mezo on Feb 27 '08 at 4:17pm
Domino is art-wise.

I am also a firm believer that you must understand and know the rules before you can break them sucessfully.
grayehound
   grayehound on Feb 27 '08 at 7:17pm
okay, the tee design in question every agrees has issues design-wise. i think most of those issues are not so much because design rules have been broken as the design doesn't have enough of them applied to structure the image in a meaningful way. few of the problems with the design have anything to do with photo-realism or how far you can break out, it's just that the image lacks a successfully applied voice. i like the phrase "In what furnace was thy brain?", but that doesn't mean it lends itself to my slapping it on a tee out of context. worse, if the phrase were "waht fucnuggetuheat thoust headz thang in it", it'd both be meaningless and poorly written. whether or not the art breaks rules, the design doesn't work as a tee design for what is sold here. it might work other places, and i'm sure it'd have an audience somewhere, but not in this market.

tho i know what your point was, i don't think pointilism and halftoning are more than passingly similar. it's really very insulting to pointilists to call their work "halftoned." i think art movements are always happening in any culture that has more than one artist, and i think the best artists of any age are as successful financially as they are artistically. sure, there's plenty of exceptions to that, but michelangelo, ruebens, rembrant, picasso, rothko, etc. all were very successful, highly regarded artists and quite well off as a result. maybe the closer to the bleeding edge you get, the less money you make...
isaacdealey
isaacdealey on Feb 27 '08 at 8:50pm
greyhound: re: pointilism is not halftoning ...

You're right, that was a rather crude way of describing it. What the Pointilists did was much more painstaking and required a significantly greater degree of commitment and skill (in most cases) and of course more time... A more accurate explanation of what I meant might be to say that someone uninitiated into the lingo of the historical art world would likely look upon a pointilist painting and say to themselves "ahh, half-toning, the idea is older than I thought". Because although the skill in its application is rather different, the method of transfer from canvas to eye is the same.
grayehound
   grayehound on Feb 28 '08 at 7:38am
the funny thing is halftoning was in use prior to Seurat ever painting a single dot and the use of small spots of color of different colors to work together to create an image wasn't exactly unknown four+ millenia of art...mosaic uses the same principle. if this discussion gets one person interested enough to dust off an art history book it's worth it.
Tonteau
   Tonteau on Feb 28 '08 at 7:43am
I'd just like to point out that you can polish a turd. Chris Ofili won the turner prize doing just that.
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