Interesting read. As a Christian myself I can understand your point. Here is mine.

Anti-christ means "in the place" of Christ rather than opposing him. So that bit right there suggests to me that Christianity in general is based on replacing the divine's "true", unexplainable nature (Pure unconditional love) with a superstitous, humanized notion of what he really is.

Organized religion is what keeps us from experiencing that everlasting love, IMHO. There's a reason why Christ was so tough against the religious hypocrites. There's a reason why the goats in revelation did miracles in Christ's name and all sorts of things but went to hell anyway. In the end, it means nothing if you follow all the silly human conditions but forget the only one that matters. Love, thy neighbor, because that is where God is really hiding, not on a fluffy cloud.

Montro - I'm not sure weather or not your point was meant to be a counter-point to mine but I completely agree. Jesus made it pretty simple when He was asked to name the most important commandment. Love God with every resource you've got and love people as much as you love yourself. That's really all there is to it. If we could just get a hold of those simple things everything else would fall into place.

hahahahaha
"What possible motive could he have for trying to control the means and methods of discourse regarding foreign totalitarian states?" i asked myself.
i should have guessed.
i hope your youth charges recognize what a shallow and insipid piece of shit you are.

So what does your personal contract with god stipulate? My money says something about you getting to touch a few kids as long as you spread his word, but then I wonder whether you could ever really have a romantic relationship with anything but the sound of your own voice.

COCK

grimey-
I've have no response to your actual comments just the observation that you are obviously here to do nothing but try and piss off everyone else.

Jebbie-
I must have really upset you too. I'm sorry. That was not my intention with any of this.

Thomas, I was trying to add on to what you had to say. I do agree 100%, sorry if it came across as a counter-point.

No sweat Montro. That's what I thought.

I'm just here hoping that Jebbie says "COCK" again. It's sounds so sexy with her accent...

That's awesome.

Jebbie usually doesn't verbally stab at people.
I can't tell if she's aiming her comment at you, betterthanhuman
or at grimey.

Thank you for explaining your design. I interpreted your
design in a totally different way so I'm glad you spelled
out what you were trying to communicate. I totally agree
with what you said about Christianity.

D'oh ! I thought you were the designer.

i think jebbie just likes the word COCK

ha ha ha littlem!

I like the word cock.

I enjoy typing it in capitals for no reason.

I enjoy typing it in capitals when I think there are stupid blogs and people are being too seriously.



COCK

Jebbie goes to churchly alot and grew up in a Christian home. She thinks alot of Christians act holier than thou at non-believers and she thinks this is funny as it's completely against Jesus's message.

She goes to a bit of a radical churchly and they follow what is in the Bible and only what is in the Bible. If she was to be a Christian, she would be a Christian like those people are.

She is currently undecided.

I'm glad you cleared things up, Jebbie
( though I disagree with you about this being a stupid blog )

(I didnt mean this was one sorry if that was conveyed)

ha ha - I don't there's anything left for me to misunderstand.

oopsy, I meant to include the word, "think"
I don't think there's anything left for me to misunderstand.

I grew up in a maronite catholic household. On both sides of my family we have many priests, nuns, monks etc. My great grandfathers brother was the patriarch of lebanon and fought (diplomatically) for independence from the French.
Having said all that, I'm agnostic. i believe there is something higher than us that may or may not have been responsible for our existence, but I do not think that any one or any religion has all the answers. Moreover, I do not believe that I need somebody to be the middle man in my communicating with said higher being. i.e. I don't believe in organised religion.
I believe everyone has the right to believe whetever they like, so long as they don't force this on anyone else.
I am, however, against the rise here in Australia, of evangellical pentacostal forms of Christianity. Hill Song in particular. In my opinion they are not a religion but a sect who preach wealth and beauty above all else. To hill song followers God wants you to be as successful as you can, make lots of money, and buy the latest and greatest gadgets and material things. In my opinion, this is not what christianity is about.

Pretty sure Jebblies talks in bad ways so she makes everyone misunderstand her so donut feel bad.

I just meant like COCK for sillies not for the blog being sillies.

Jebblies thinks everyone should just hug it out

p.s. i think the shirts a hoot!

Jebbie, I wish hugging it out worked on everyone :)

eskimokiss, What's so funny for me is that Christians run
around saying, "Jesus Loves You" at everyone while ignoring
how harshly he dealt with the hypocritical religious leaders
of his day. He proclaimed in public that they were vipers and
tombs full of bones. I also would have loved to see him clearing
out the money-changers from the temple court.

Jebblies isn't a Hillsonger but two things. Firstly It's one word. Secondly they don't preach wealth and beauty above all else. Have you listened to any of their sermons? If not I suggest you don't be an ass and assume things from the media.

I disagree with some things Hillsong do but I believe that people should not misjudge them form a place of ignorance. I'm all about people researching facts for themselves before making opinions on things.

Hillsong goers (and pastors) do come across as superficial and all about materialistic things but they are not (in my own personal experience of meeting such people). Brian and Bobby Houston (spelling? I donut know) are lovely generous people. And if you look at all the people they help and amount of projects they have it is amazing. How they have the energy I donut know.

I donut think that every branch of the Christian faith is for everyone, and I donut think that the different branches should quarrel over petty things like who is right or who does what better. Every individual church has good and bad points, because the church is made up of people. pPeople individually have good and bad points and they are imperfect (which is why we need Christ in their opinion). I think that the Church (as a whole, not including what denomination they are) should be more united, and focus on other issues. If they truly believe in the message of the Bible then they should be focussed on non-believers not who is better.

It is for these petty fights (and other reasons) why Jebbie does not really call herself a Christian. She does not expect a Church to be perflect, but she is hoping to maybe one day find one that is not discriminatory on denomination, but is more focused on God and Bibley shit.

I hope this makes sense, and I have mroe things to say. I don't really like religious arguments because I believe that everyone is entitled to believe what they want to (including myself!). Although I do believe some people are very very wrong, I never would say this and most times when I have religious discussions people do not reciprocate this and they tell me I am wrong. This makes Jebblies sad as if she respects you, she hopes for respect in return.

The ends.

ps I also believe Jesus loves unconditionally but it's Christians in their imperfections who make people think that maybe he is conditional.

Christians are often conditional, I believe Jesus is not.

Jebbie on Oct 13 '07 at 4:23am
It is for these petty fights (and other reasons) why Jebbie does not really call herself a Christian

Well, you can throw out petty Christians as a reason to not be
a Christian since Christianity is not based on Christians, but on
Christ himself and his Word. So no matter how stupid we Christians
get, please evaluate Christianity's worth on Christ. Yes, petty
Christians give everyone reasons to wonder if Christianity has
value, but bad sailors aren't always an indicator that the ship
is unworthy. The ship of Christianity will always be around, but
some sailors on board try to mess things up. And what I fear
is that everyone pushes the idea of unconditional love to where
confrontation is avoided. Sailors/Christians that are trying to
put holes in the ship should be thrown overboard if they will not
turn around. I wonder if a lot of the junk you've see in churches
is a byproduct of wimpy Christians not following Christ's teaching
on how to deal with someone in sin who claims they are a
Christian ( Matthew 18:15 - 17 ).

I agree with much thay has been said in this blog. I'm a commited Christian (All to God, and not an institution) and i'm in my last month at Bible college, and have come to realise that, as Jebbie has said, that it's the imperfect humans (the Christians) who fail to act out Jesus' unconditional love. One of my lecturers, an awesome guy- smart as heck, knows greek and hebrew and stuff and is also very practical guy- really stresses the importance of an active christianity as Jesus exampled (Looking after the sick, widowed general outcasts and downtrodden) and not the ritual ceremony of "playing" church once a week.

For the most case, many christians tend to apathetic in their faith, and end up comprimising their beliefs, giving God a bad name and treating people badly. I think the bad feeling toward Christion church is somewhat justified, but is a pity because we have failed to give a correct display of what Jesus' love.

My church, although not perfect (trust me), has really started to emphisise doing good work in the community for no return (or expectation of christion response or commitment)- just to do the kind of thing Jesus would've done. If they don't ever end up believing in God, at least they could've experienced an unconditional act of love and kindness. I really like that approach to christianity.

I also believe that the label of being a "Christian" isn't necessary to love and follow God. Never in the bible does it say what Jesus' followers were to call themselves. Just a thought.

What helo just said is very true.

Jebbie on Oct 13 '07 at 4:24am - "Christians are often conditional, I believe Jesus is not."

I've talked with deepchild, the designer of this tee, outside of Threadless and that is exactly the point he was trying to make with this.

WanderingBert on Oct 13 '07 at 4:58am - "really stresses the importance of an active Christianity as Jesus exampled (Looking after the sick, widowed general outcasts and downtrodden) and not the ritual ceremony of "playing" church once a week."

He's absolutely right - James 1:27
Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

So many of the "issues" with the church and the hypocritical christians could be answered if people would take on the attitudes portrayed by King David and Paul of the bible. In Psalm 51 David says that, more than anything else, God desires a broken heart that is sensitive to Him and His love. He begs God to give him the ability to teach and help others. And later Paul exemplifies this when, even after being responsible for thousands being saved, he says "What a wretched man I am!" (Romans 7)
Both of these guys understood that they were nothing without God and that's what made them great. Their humility allowed them to serve people selflessly. Selfless giving and service is a concept almost completely lost on believers in America. They just want to pay their tithe and hide their sin and expect everything else will be fine.
I hope for the sake of everyone that we can someday recover these concepts and attitudes in more of the church.

That's cool helo, although I'd like to say that what I said was it's why I don't really want to call myself a Christian, not why I'm not one. THe ship of Christianity will always be around fo sho. And people saying one thing and doing another will be around for a long time as well. Which sucks. What I tried to convey (but obviously didnt) was that alot of Christians give Christianity a bad rep.


betterthanhuman I understood where the designer was coming from and what he was trying to portray in his design. I personally just do not have strong enough convictions to be wearing a tee that said that, I'm not against or for that design in particular. I just thought this thread was getting a bit seriously and the internet isn't serious business for me, hence why I said COCK.

I sort of regret defending my COCK comment now because I don't like these discussions muchly.

I think that nice people are nice and let's all hold hands and frollic in the fields!

this is an interesting blog. i'm a Christian, but my life has been confusing the past couple of years since i went through a divorce. divorces are always complicated and messy, and unfortunately i really feel the people in my former church didn't respond with the love of God toward me...and so i left...and i'm still searching for a church where i feel i can now fit in. church used to be "my life", i was very involved, now not often at all. i was in "the church" for over 20 years...now it has been a very confusing time for me...but it taught me clearly that Christians are human and will fail you, and when they do, it hurts more than anyone else because they of all people are the ones who make such claims that they will be there for you and love you with the love of God. however, i know that God is still God, and thankfully He saw it all. i know, at least in my head, that He still is with me, although life is real tough and i don't always feel it. i think i was in a church that based too much on feeling and emotion, calling it other things...now i'm trying to figure what i can accept and where i belong. i feel i belong nowhere, but i still know, though i may be an undesirable person or whatever...i'm part of the body of Christ and i belong to Him.

Jebbie - I didn't mean to sound like "Duh! Thats what the designer meant. " I was just kind of throwing that in to agree.

Let the frolicking commence....

Eileen - I'm glad to hear you haven't given up on Jesus. Though I hope you won't give up on the church either. Unfortunately people will always fail us but the love of God doesn't. I hope you find a house to call home soon.

First of all can I say that I think that grimeys comment was totally out of order and there is no place for that kind of abuse.

I just wanted to say that I am a humanist and an athiest and as such, believe that I have a more tolerant and unconditional love for my fellow man than the majority of christians. This is because I have an acceptance of different religious persuasions and sexualities that in my experience most christians do not have. You holdthe Bible up as if it is a panacea but it is full of contradictions and inconsistancies. People cherry pick the things they want to believe in and proclaim it as true because it is in the good book ( attitudes towards homosexuality ) but ignore inconvienent passages that are difficult to explain away ( the bible condoning slavery ). I have no problem with Christianity but an over reliance and unwavering belief in every ( cherry picked ) word in the Bible leads to a rigid and unforgiving dogma that can breed intolerance and elitism in those that follow it. Here endeth the lesson :)

I too would like to wish you happiness in the future Eileen in all you do and I'm sure things will improve. It is however proof in the point I was trying to make. Those judgements were made against you because of the values held by others due to a religious belief.

David - Thanks for the comments you bring up some very good points.

I agree about grimey. He's just here to antagonize people.

The "cherry picked" doctrines and unwavering dogma (that is often based on poor understanding or mis-interpretations) are the fuel for the theme of the design that this blog is about. Excellent point.
The attitudes towards homosexuality especially. Right there you have a segment of society that, outside of urban atmospheres, can be completely ostracized. If anyone needs the love that the church should offer it's them.

As far as the inconvenient passages that are difficult to explain or understand. They provide even more reason why Christians need to study and understand what it is they stand for and claim to believe. About the bible condoning slavery, I'm assuming you are talking about the repeated instances in the old testament. There is an element of cultural relevance that needs to be considered there. Much of the slavery that took place in those days was more like indentureship. There are several instances of people asking to be made slaves. These slaves were often very much a part of the families they served. Joseph was the second most powerful man in Egypt, yet still a slave.

Thank you so much for your comments.

thanks betterthanhuman

Spam69 unfortunately there are many non-Christians who can show unconditional love, wisdom and acceptance better than Christians, however, I did not intend anything I said to be used as proof that Christianity is not true...there's just a lot of Christians including myself who fail in various ways to be and act as we should. i think there are many factors in this, not just religious beliefs. and for the record, i do not "believe" that divorce should be a quick answer. i do not "believe in" divorce, yet there's the contradiction that sometimes, unfortunately, it becomes the proper answer in certain situations. this is still something i am trying to process.

*wishes he had one of those voicemail thingies in his profile so Jebbie could leave him a message where she just says "COCK" over and over with different inflections for about 30 seconds or a minute*

*mulls over sending Jebbie money to cover the cost of an international phone call*

*goes to bed slightly depressed*

Super.

I'm glad we can frolick in happiness instead.

Pretty sure I was tired and grumpy mcgrumps when I posted before.

Please feel free to ignore anything I say ever.



Aw that's heaps cute Mr professorE although I have a lame voice that sounds like I'm 5 so it wouldn't be heaps awesomeo if I said COCK anyway

Regardless of belief I gave this tee shirt a 0 because its playing on peoples beliefs in the hope that it will increase its chances of being printed.

I'm all for freedom of speach but I dont want threadless to be somebodies soapbox to preach to us, its happened before and it went badly. I still to this day think the staff should of banned them (a while back a bunch of vegans came on the board asking for donnations and then started calling us evil for eating meat).

COCK

squatterjohn knows where its at

A 5 year old saying COCK with an accent would be even better!

Don't let her fool you. I've heard her speak on other people's voicemails, and she is a temptress...

Let me rephrase that: An adult who sounds like a 5 year old saying COCK would be even better!

If it was an actual 5 year old I'd wonder where the heck their parents were...

betterthanhuman on Oct 14 '07 at 11:39am
*slowly digs hole deeper*

Thank you for the thoughtful and well considered reply Thomas, it's good to know that there are christians like yourself who think the way you do. You talk about putting slavery in a cultural context and you are absolutely right of course but is a shame that some christians do not use the same process when considering other aspects of the bible ( such as homosexuality). I disagree with your opinions re. slavery though, I feel that is the church putting a heavy coat of gloss on the situation. If you read Exodus 21:20-21 there is little doubt what a slave is -

" When a man strikes his slave, male or female and the slave dies under his hand he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two he is not to be punished ; for the slave is his money ( property). "

However , we will have to agree to disagree on that one. all the best.

right now there's a talk show ( the Alan Hunt show ) covering the topic :
Why people view Christians as too judgmental, too anti-homosexual, etc. . .

go to this list of radio stations and click on the "Listen Live" link
to this station ( sorta near the bottom of the page )

WSB AM 750 AM . . . . . . . . Atlanta . . . . Mix . . . . . Listen Live

you can call in 1-800 WSB-TALK . . . . ( 1-800 972-8255 )

David - Thanks again for the comments. It's nice to talk to someone who is actually intelligent and can have a civil conversation about a subject they disagree on. Grimey needs to take some pointers.

Helo - I missed the broadcast. Is there anyway to listen to an archive or something?

Jebblies isn't a Hillsonger but two things. Firstly It's one word. Secondly they don't preach wealth and beauty above all else. Have you listened to any of their sermons? If not I suggest you don't be an ass and assume things from the media.

Firstly, my apologies for misrepresenting their (brand) name. I would never dis such businesses as Coca Cola or McDonalds that way so I sincerely apologise.
Secondly, I have had many first hand experience with Hillsong since 2002 long before they were household names, and prior to the media taking them to task. And let me tell you that none of the experience’s put hillsong in a good light.
The first time I’d heard about the ”church” was through a former work mate who had referred to other ladies in the office as R.C’s. When I asked her what she meant by the term R.C, she said it stood for “Roman Catholics”. “But aren’t you catholic?” I responded, as I’d known she was a Christian who regularly attended church on Sundays.
“No, I’m Pentecostal” was her response. She then told me about an amazing church called hillsong where people sing and dance, and how it was a new and fun church. I was quite taken aback, as I’d never heard a Christian talk about another fellow Christian in a derogatory way. Maybe I was naïve, but I set out to research this church.
Since then I’ve read many things from their own propaganda machine’s (website et al) to other (external) reliable sources, and have had many friends within the church, and believe it or not jebbie, after years at uni studying media, communications and psychology, I do not believe everything the media reports. However, what I have gathered from ‘reading between the lines’ has led me to believe that hillsong is not a religion but a big corporate sect.

I’d rattle off the many points to provide back up for my argument, but I’m afraid you’d just call me biased and someone who “ assume(s) things from the media”

Let me just say that the amount of power that hillsong have particularly in the political arena is very scary. One would hope that in the 21st century we’d advanced enough to separate church and state however,


Hillsong goers (and pastors) do come across as superficial and all about materialistic things but they are not (in my own personal experience of meeting such people). Brian and Bobby Houston (spelling? I donut know) are lovely generous people. And if you look at all the people they help and amount of projects they have it is amazing. How they have the energy I donut know.

If you actually look at the figures closely you’ll find that they donate peanuts compared to what they make per year. I’ve heard many figures bandies around, but this quote from an article found here may be a slap in the face to the altruistic bobby and brian Houston.

There is no doubt that Hillsong - or, closer to the mark, its loyal parishioners - perform many good deeds. The church has a number of charitable arms, including Mercy Ministries, a residence for girls dealing with unplanned pregnancies and eating disorders established five years ago by Hillsong’s Darlene Zschech, the country’s most popular and successful Christian singer. Although recently mired in controversy, the church’s main benevolent arm, Hillsong Emerge, has helped people find jobs and recover from addictions. Hillsong attendees sponsor about 2600 children in Uganda, and generously gave $500,000 to victims of the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami.
But the criticism seems likely to persist as long as Hillsong makes $50 million in revenue, pays no tax and yet spends just $2.67 million on “welfare services”. It is not clear how much Mercy Ministries gets from Hillsong, but its total donations were just $304,840 in 2004. And Hillsong Emerge’s 2004 accounts show it got only $646,666 from the Hillsong Foundation Trust and about that again in government grants.
And Houston has been less than transparent about his own income. Until last year he had failed to declare that he and Bobbie had sold their own personal property holdings to a Hillsong-related entity of which he is a director, Leadership Ministries Incorporated. Bobbie sold a Bondi beachfront apartment on the same block as Jamie Packer’s pad to the not-for-profit LMI for $650,000 in February 2002. The couple also sold a waterfront property on the Hawkesbury River in October 2004 to LMI for $780,000, making $535,000 on their 1998 purchase price. They continue to use both these properties.
LMI is the tax-free entity Hillsong set up as a vehicle to pay the couple’s income. In breach of Office of Fair Trading reporting rules, no financial statements had been lodged since its inception in October 2001. Only after the property deals were uncovered by The Australian were the accounts filed in August last year. When the numbers came in they revealed the golden couple got a measly net income, after donations, of just $21,658 in the year to December 2002, $12,739 in 2003 and $69,041 in 2004.

Sorry for the extremely long post, I promise that this’ll be my last post on the subject. If anyone would like to take me to task on what I’ve said then I’d be happy to continue the discussion via email correspondence.

Oh, and .. God bless the Chaser boys!