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unastronaut
unastronaut aka Rando,M. aka M@ is a 29.46 year old boy, has been a member since December 1, 2006, has scored 110 submissions, giving an average score of 2.70, helping 2 designs get printed.
AIM: MySandinista
The immigration debate makes me want to think, makes my head hurt, and makes me feel like apathy and malaise actually are one in the same.

[ If you're going to read this and then complain that your time's been wasted, this is your out. Stop reading and save the world some friction. ]

Having said that, I feel like the "debate" if you can call it that, is so muddled the average person comes into it with little real understanding of the issue at hand. Most interesting are the key assumptions people make which automatically create a debate about a fictitious scenario.

1) Latin immigration is no different in pattern or effect than any other influx of migration to the US, legal or otherwise, in the history of the United States. That isn't to say they are the same people, but ignoring the similarities is a tough task for reasonable people. Consider Chinese immigration in the late-1800s and early-1900s. The contribution to industry, the anecdotal examples of the hardships faced by immigrants, the xenophobic public backlash to a spike in immigration and the further dissolution of cultural purity. Accept this: our culture will change drastically at all times, should we really try and prevent something from altering our culture or simply try and affect the path and mitigate any negative effects of that process? 'Race' is another bag of tricks, but for now I'll just call shenanigans on the concept and file it with Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the concept of time as we know it.

2) The majority of those wanting into this country are not American dream-seekers or workers looking to send money out of the country. Refugees, asylum-seekers and people willing to turn to human traffickers to seek a safer living environment for their families. This isn't a chance to share the stupid American dream, it's a chance to act human at every moment. How equally would you treat people if everyone on the planet woke up blind tomorrow?

3) Human smuggling and trafficking is very real, very cruel and saw a boom in demand since 1992, when the US adopted an immigration policy of "prevention through deterrence", aka "lock down the border". Just a quick cost-benefit analysis on this line of thinking, from 1992-now US spending on border enforcement rose from around $750 million annually to almost $4 billion in 2005. What kind of enforcement have we gotten for our money? Although the number of apprehensions at the border has fluctuated within a gradual range, we have right around 1.1 million apprehensions annually. This is virtually the same level of apprehension seen in 1992. The only added bang-for-buck we've seen is a sharp increase in the level of deaths of migrants at the border, both due to extreme conditions and exploitation by traffickers.

So my point is, the immigration debate is a human issue, not an economic or security issue. It greatly concerns aspects of our national security and economy, but everyone in the equation shares the common characteristic of being human. Through all of our faults, America is a nation built on progressive principles and a belief in universal rights. We've not always acted this way, we don't all act this way now, but that's never a reason not to try. Did your parents ever teach you to share? I know my parents meant to share all of my best stuff, not my hand-me-downs. I was never taught to stick up my nose.

The metaphor I think fits this is an asshole who drives around in a pimped out ride and then rolls his window down to talk shit to anyone ogling said ride. It's silly how people want to create amazing things only to deny others the right to experience the same.

“No matter what other nations may say about the United States, immigration is still the sincerest form of flattery.” - Clayton Cramer

Manos
   Manos on May 19 '07 at 12:58pm
Sorry dude can't read all that but crime came first. fo sho!
deathcabfortom
deathcabfortom on May 19 '07 at 12:59pm
CAIN KILLED ABEL MAN.



I don't care about immigration.
unastronaut
unastronaut on May 19 '07 at 1:03pm
If you can't be revolutionary, be reactionary!
deathcabfortom
deathcabfortom on May 19 '07 at 3:55pm
If you can't be reactionary, scratch your butt!
J-Ray
J-Ray on May 19 '07 at 3:56pm
what are you gonna do about it?
broken.yoke
broken.yoke on May 19 '07 at 3:59pm
manos.... a crime isn't a crime without a law to call it a crime.
unastronaut
unastronaut on May 19 '07 at 4:05pm
If the first problem is that people aren't always aware of the issues and the facts, wouldn't just talking about it be something?
peater
peater on May 19 '07 at 5:06pm
My question is, what makes us responsible for the lives of opressed foreign individuals? In what way are we obligated to help?



I see none. It might be a gracious thing to do, but there is a distinction between charity and obligation.



There is a legal means of entry, and illegal immigration is a slap in the face, a conscious attempt to subvert our sovereignty over our own land. Let's say that ogling person asked to get in my pimped-out ride, and I say no. But he starts running toward me anyway, and gets run over by a bus in the other lane. To what extent am I responsible?



It's silly how people want to create amazing things only to deny others the right to experience the same.



Well, they've tried to fix that, but the day after Christmas in 1991 taught us that the whole sharing thing doesn't work well, either.
Khol
Khol on May 19 '07 at 5:28pm
I concur with everything Peter just said.
peater
peater on May 19 '07 at 6:02pm
I'd go so far as to say that we wouldn't have these "amazing things" in the first place, if we couldn't "deny them to others." Avaricious greed is the most productive force in a modern economy: cancer drugs, safe automobiles, high-yield farm products, even Threadless shirts are all made by individuals seeking to turn profit.



Patents and copyright allow us to "deny them to others" so we can recoup research costs, to sustain innovation. Trust me, when the richest and most productive become less rich and productive, the poorest take the brunt of the damage.
unastronaut
unastronaut on May 19 '07 at 6:11pm
It's true...300 million heads are better than 6 billion. When it comes to problem solving, I feel like the solution shouldn't be about assessing blame and punishment before actually solving problem.



We're not obligated.



I think honestly I'm just a lone voice, so don't hear any authority in it, but I abhor the masses who only serve as turnstiles in a world that needs turbines.



As for your ride, I really hear you...in that situation I'd wanna book it and keep myself safe. But high enough on life, optimism or LSD I could imagine a world with no possessions. And then my ride is just a piece of my contribution to the greater good. I'm too idealistic, I know.
J-Ray
J-Ray on May 19 '07 at 6:25pm
Peater makes a very good argument... good job peter!
peater
peater on May 19 '07 at 6:33pm
it's all good, unastronaut... a young conservative has no heart, an old liberal, no brain.
unastronaut
unastronaut on May 19 '07 at 8:09pm
My curiosity then is ho I'm old at 24 and you're young at 20.



Nice job summing up global issues by defining two sides, and establishing polarity between the two. Come back when you realize how uninformed your last comment was.
peater
peater on May 19 '07 at 8:18pm
It's a loose quote of Winston Churchill's, in jest. we're both young.



relax :)
unastronaut
unastronaut on May 19 '07 at 8:25pm
True, and I heard a similar form of it in a song. Either way, Threadless is just for talkin and relaxin, so good call!
Daffy_501
Daffy_501 on May 19 '07 at 8:36pm
broken yoke : A crime isnt a crime.........if no one catches you ; )

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I love music, which is cliché, but the way I love music is not cliché. I love to read, and Chuck Palahniuk is my favorite. Very simple guy, whose packaging reads "Just add encouragement!" I'm half-well-read, half-well-intended and opinionated but (I'd hope) not to a fault. I figure if you're happy and I'm happy, whether or not we're doing the same thing is irrelevant. I think I'm hated by the overly educated and the undereducated and I'm in like Flynn with real humans being real.

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