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Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas aka Phineas is a boy, has been a member since August 27, 2005, has scored 1613 submissions, giving an average score of 2.53.
  Sep 07 '05 by Poor_Phineas        62 Comments        Watch this      Share:  Share on facebook    Share on delicious    Share on digg    Share on MySpace    Tweet this    Stumble this    Share this on Kaboodle   
I have been on Threadless for almost two weeks now, and I really enjoy the community here. One thing that troubles me, however, is the number of entries that are using stolen art.

mjeremenko leads with three confirmed stolen entries:

http://www.threadless.com/submission/53062/Suicide_King_(King_Of_Hearts) , which rmx noticed: http://www.lafraise.com/tee-shirt-12134p3-politiclycorrect.html#com

and

http://www.threadless.com/submission/52932/love_ambigram , which blandford noticed: http://www.johnlangdon.net/New_Pages/City_of_Brotherly_Love.htm

mjeremenko admitted -- ADMITTED -- to taking the latter design and submitting it. "SHITTTTTTTTTTT i was hoping this shirt wouldnt get accepted. woops. hah." (06 Sep 05)

I decided to check out his Fourbucks design: http://www.threadless.com/submission/52435/fourbucks

A simple GIS (Google Image Search) for "fourbucks" revealed that this image is ALL OVER the internet; a notable entry is from the Fark forums, dated May 6th, 2004. This is not his design either.

This is but one example of individuals submitting other's art work as their own. HelloSudamerica recently submitted a design: http://www.threadless.com/submission/52630/avellanas_in_pijamas

This is an obvious lift of Akiyoshi Kitaoka's work, found at http://www.ritsumei.ac.jp/~akitaoka/doncurtain.gif . Kitaoka's work is all over the internet; I was surprised to see such a popular image submitted to Threadless.

Then we have crayola_barbie, who recently submitted Boy Toy: http://www.threadless.com/submission/52645/Boy_toy . Chris3347 pointed out that this image was previously submitted to Threadless: http://www.threadless.com/submission/48435/girls_can_be_so_cruel

crayola_barbie didn't even bother using an outside source: s/he used an image that was *already submitted to Threadless!* Unbelievable.

Why do people do this? I recall a time when people had respect for themselves and their fellow artists. Men and women had integrity. It's saddening to see this practice so common -- and so *obvious* -- on such a cool site as Threadless.

I hope the guys at Threadless are smart about protecting themselves and the other honest artists here. I hope that they do their due diligence before agreeing to pay for any design and make sure that the work is indeed original artwork by the submitter. If it is not, then I hope that the Threadless guys take the appropriate measures to prevent false submissions from recurring. Do more than ban the offending submitter's account: ban their IP. Just get rid of them. People like them not only hurt the honest artists here, but one bad lawsuit could fuck Threadless badly, and then we would *all* lose.

That would be a real shame. I have been on Threadless for two weeks, and I really enjoy this community.
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tesko
   tesko on Sep 07 '05 at 10:22pm
Wow, you're like the Columbo of threadless. Keep it up
snacktivity
snacktivity on Sep 07 '05 at 10:25pm
More like the Dumbo of threadless! I stole all of my designs! and not a single person caught me! I'll just keep doing it too! HAHAHAHA! I'm Invincible!
Kens
Kens on Sep 07 '05 at 10:26pm
wow that sucks........ a lot.
Leslee
Leslee on Sep 07 '05 at 10:27pm
Wow.
I remember that Girls Can Be So Cruel submission. When I saw Boy Toy, I thought it was a resub and didn't bother to check. I usually score the submissions early too, so I'm not around if someone points out a ripoff.
Thanks. They've been zeroed.
sarahrae
sarahrae on Sep 07 '05 at 10:51pm
You're my hero.

Seriously.

My wife (sarahrae) and I have been shouting about this for months and very few people listen...
rudeboyzach
rudeboyzach on Sep 07 '05 at 10:53pm
CRAP.

I hate it when sarah stays logged in... then I go and post as her and look stupid.

*sigh*

You're still my hero.
amandaw
amandaw on Sep 08 '05 at 12:57am
people have lacked integrity for a long, long time. threadless was apparently just a small enough, isolated enough group of people that it took awhile to get here too, but trust me, it affects any large group -- once you have some degree of anonymity, there will be the few bad eggs who will take any way they can to be successful.
bonedaddy
bonedaddy on Sep 08 '05 at 3:01pm
I bet if all the blog posts about this subject were put together and all offenders were added to a list (let's only go back a mont), there would be over 30 offenses and stolen pieces of art. Plus proof.

I also believe you are the Columbo of Threadless. People usually point this stuff out, but you've got the forensics to back it up.
Well done.
Perudoesitbetterthanu
   Perudoesitbetterthanu on Sep 08 '05 at 3:18pm
wow that same guys ur talking about, mjeremenko, asked me for some stuff. he said he wanted me to design some stuff for his band, wow what a loser. im glad i didnt
TFMdesign
TFMdesign on Sep 08 '05 at 3:53pm
your very observant aren't you? i salute you.
xiv
   xiv on Sep 08 '05 at 3:57pm
Threadless cop.
Perudoesitbetterthanu
   Perudoesitbetterthanu on Sep 08 '05 at 4:05pm
ya wow i commend you for your efforts, very well observed. keep up the good work.
Robsoul
   Robsoul on Sep 08 '05 at 4:09pm
we need one.

what's your take on the whole predicaments thing? you're probably wearing that shirt as we blog though, not making it personal but those shirts sold like hotcakes and it was a complete ripoff.... (smallest fiddle in the world, I know I know)
Robsoul
   Robsoul on Sep 08 '05 at 4:09pm
Threadless cop

* we need one.
Perudoesitbetterthanu
   Perudoesitbetterthanu on Sep 08 '05 at 4:14pm
ya i blogged about this one too,
http://threadless.com/profile/124197/Perudoesitbetterthanu/8591/so_how_was_this_ripped_off
im still pretty much torn, but we got into originality and a bunch of other stuff too. Many find that the fact that some of the element were "borrowed" and that the idea was too, was perfectly fine just aslong as they liked it.
Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas on Sep 08 '05 at 6:11pm
Perudoesitbetterthanu -- I saw that and was going to comment on it here, but I felt that it is entirely a different topic. However, since you bring it up, I will comment. :)

For those of you who have not read Peru's entry, it's certainly worth a look; grayehound has some nice observations within this thread which are worth reviewing.

I feel there is a significant difference between blatant theft of a design and borrowing elements to incorporate within a design. There will be arguments asking at which point do "borrowing elements" become "theft of art", and I personally can't answer this question. If a composite image is comprised entirely of borrowed elements, is it an original piece of art? Is it theft? What is considered an acceptable balance between personal creativity and creative design with borrowed elements?

In Andy Weitzel's case, ICD2k3 found two of the three reference materials used for Predicament (can anyone find the source image for the fish?), and both ICD2k3 and xiv listed the creative/inspirational source for this design. Is a design compromised entirely of third-party images theft? Not necessarily, but when such a design duplicates an idea already released by another artist, is that theft? I think that it -- at the very least -- is unethical, especially if an artist like Weitzel is receiving monetary compensation for work that appears to duplicate someone else's idea.

Give Peru's blog entry a read, and give this subject some thought.
Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas on Sep 08 '05 at 6:26pm
As for the many kind words: thank you, but credit goes to those who caught the duplicates (their names are listed within the blog entry: rmx, blandford and Chris3347). They are the ones who should receive the kudos. All I'm doing is putting this subject under the microscope for examination and reevaluation.

As for Threadless needing a design cop: I feel that this is a decision for the Threadless community to make. If art theft troubles us, then we all can help by being a little more vigilant when reviewing submissions.
grayehound
   grayehound on Sep 08 '05 at 7:25pm
The value of an aware, ethical and (most importantly) VOCAL group within any society cannot be underestimated. Witnessing a wrong and doing nothing is tantamount to participation in the wrong. There are a large number of very visually aware people on this site and it's heartening that once something is noticed, there exists a group that loudly vocalizes their opposition to the wrongs being done. Even better, the threadless crew has been extremely good about declining and eliminating copycats when they've been revealed.

It behooves us all to take a stand against anyone who stains the credibility and integrity of the ideas on this site.
NuImage
NuImage on Sep 08 '05 at 7:47pm
I can only dream of having that much free time , the bottom line is MOST PEOPLE SUCK! We as a whol (not your,. or maybe ) only case about ourself. and how about $1000 for a tee idea????? So you can be too shocked by this.
amdandy
amdandy on Sep 08 '05 at 8:02pm
yeah, those bastards are losers. they probably lie about everything they do. and have nothing to show for themselves!! what a bunch of thefts!! right on!!!

man to avoid those problems when i think i have an original idea i title it as what it is and fucking google search the shit out of it!! and if i see that even anyone got close to what i got to- i drop it like its hot and move on!! thats what those fuckers need to do!!

and yes i agree blocking there IP would do the trick!!
tesko
   tesko on Sep 08 '05 at 8:03pm
Thats what I do ^
amdandy
amdandy on Sep 08 '05 at 8:13pm
hells yeah - see tesko knows his shit!!!
Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas on Sep 08 '05 at 8:20pm
One thing that I personally have tried is taking a peek at the person's profile to see if they have submitted previous pieces. If the latest piece is unusally or drastically different from previous submissions, then this is something to take into consideration.

Just saying. :)
brotherman
brotherman on Sep 08 '05 at 8:21pm
When you get an idea you can’t possibly know if it’s never been done, even if you google it. 60,000 submissions on this one site - 45 - 50 years of tee shirts being printed and artwork spanning back 5,000 years or more.

BUT if someone is caught stealing artwork or text - NAIL THEIR BUTTS TO THE WALL.

I have a submission that is pending right now that address this issue - hope you look for it.
Perudoesitbetterthanu
   Perudoesitbetterthanu on Sep 08 '05 at 8:29pm
well im glad you took my blog into consideration, i really did think it had great stuff that should be discussed. stealing will always go on, but im just glad we have people like you said, vocal enough on threadless, to do something about it.
NuImage
NuImage on Sep 08 '05 at 8:29pm
yea block it like its hot !
sailonsilvergirl
sailonsilvergirl on Sep 08 '05 at 8:34pm
It would be nice if certain blogs could stay at the top, such as one to point out thefts so they can quickly be zeroed.
Perudoesitbetterthanu
   Perudoesitbetterthanu on Sep 08 '05 at 8:40pm
ya it would be better, than bumping...haha.
sailonsilvergirl
sailonsilvergirl on Sep 08 '05 at 8:43pm
especially since it can take days to look for a certain blog.
Perudoesitbetterthanu
   Perudoesitbetterthanu on Sep 08 '05 at 8:45pm
ya they should def institute a blog search. this matter has already been asked for im pretty sure.
Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas on Sep 08 '05 at 8:46pm
sailonsilvergirl -- I would also like to see a compiled list of account names that have submitted confirmed thefts, but then it occured to me that it would be rather easy for such individuals to abandond such an account and create a new one.

Any suggestions? Do it anyway? :)
Perudoesitbetterthanu
   Perudoesitbetterthanu on Sep 08 '05 at 8:47pm
ya that is true.
daniexanie
daniexanie on Sep 08 '05 at 9:36pm
you guys rock! good design ethics are key to our survival as original artists, and i completely agree with everything said above. i do think that if blocking an ip address were to be used as punishment, it should have a time limit of some sort (and maybe a means of contesting a claim agains oneself?). many designers ive seen here are young and with time atleast some of them can learn. on a similar, but seperate note, ive come into the problem of having submitted an idea in the same time frame as someone else and i have a blog on this subject here:

http://threadless.com/profile/170997/daniexanie/8603/Serious_Problems_with_the_Collective_Consiousness

please read this after you finish here, for the sake of trying to take every aspect of design duplication into consideration. thanks and kudos to everyone with a conscience.

-danie
Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas on Sep 08 '05 at 10:14pm
daniexanie -- I saw that blog entry. :)

That's a slippery subject to tackle. If you and another person submit similar concepts at the same time, but your design gets posted first, does that make the other artist the bad guy? What if it were his work that posted first -- are you now the villainess?

I find that I am more forgiving on seeing common design themes (example: a medical diagram of the human heart); these common themes become the clichés of Threadless. Pandas, Polar bears, hearts, close ups of women's faces, pirates, ninjas, zombies, robots...we've seen these themes repeated in various submissions. Doing a variation of one of these themes isn't neccessarily bad -- it's great if you present your work well -- but you won't earn any origninality points from me for a clichéd theme. ;)

The real trick is to create something that hasn't been done before. The catch is that it's *all* been done before!
Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas on Sep 08 '05 at 10:27pm
Here's another recent entry from lengjai108:

http://threadless.com/submission/53206/grizzly_pollution

lengjai108 explains this entry: "Yes definitely taken from permafrost. But I think this would be a great supplement to the ever popular shirt. Like his great cousin from the redland forrests."

Most of you probably already know the "permafrost" entry he speaks of is:

http://www.threadless.com/product/94/Permafrost_Pollution

While this is not a blatant copy (as demonstrated by our disesteemed colleague mjeremenko), it is by no means an original thought. lengjai108 presents this as a "supplement"; I feel that it certainly falls into the same grey-area catagory as the Predicament entry: how original is a design that relies heavily on borrowed materials and ideas?
xiv
   xiv on Sep 08 '05 at 10:32pm
theres such a fine line between what is ok and what isnt. Alot of people have crossed the line, but so many more push it to the limit.
xiv
   xiv on Sep 08 '05 at 10:34pm
and its really pathetic when people submit designs that are very similar or exactly like others that were printed on this site.
NuImage
NuImage on Sep 08 '05 at 11:31pm
so what let the rabbits wear glasses. xiv you like the free shirt! anyway, most well of the designs suck that you are talkng about. We can all say that we have the only idea but look at the JUNE comp. a lot of stuff comes from the same idea. A bunch of them seem sort of the same in ways. TO DO A COPY AND PASTE is wrong 100% . But to have an idea that is like another. that happens. It happened to me . I do not have the time to check all of the designs on here. Whatever. to each his/her own !
Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas on Sep 09 '05 at 5:58am
There is the whole different ethical question of submitting previous published work.

bclever recently submitted this entry:

http://www.threadless.com/submission/53196/organic_grooves

A brief search on the internet revealed this site (note the domain name):

http://organicgrooves.net/images/organicgrooves.jpg

I called "bullshit" on him before reading the comments; in the comments he claims that he is the artist for this design, and said design was created for the Organic Grooves festival.

This dredges up a whole separate issue: is it ethical for an artist to submit previously published art to Threadless? If bclever was paid to do the design for this festival, why is he submitting it to Threadless? Who owns the rights to that work -- the artist or the purchaser? If he was not paid for this design and it was still used by the entity that he submitted it to, then is it ethically sound to submit the same work to Threadless for a chance at receive payment?
LOSMATTOCKS
LOSMATTOCKS on Sep 09 '05 at 9:52am
WOW, thanks for taking the time do post this. I wish they could be blocked.
cambert
cambert on Sep 09 '05 at 10:00am
On that question, I can't see a problem with selling the same piece of work twice, if you own the copyright and it doesn't breach any previous agreements regarding that piece of work. Writers do it all the time: e.g. submit a short story to a magazine, then allow it to be reprinted in an anthology, then maybe reprinted again in a collection of that writer's work. Payment is scarce enough in the arts without cutting off sales opportunities.
The question you ask cuts to the heart of the matter, though: Who owns the rights to that work -- the artist or the purchaser? If the artist has sold his rights in the work the first time around, he can't use it again. Depends on the agreement that was made at the time.

And as everyone else has been saying, great detective work, Phineas. Glad you've brought the subject into the foreground.
cambert
cambert on Sep 09 '05 at 10:01am
"On that question..." i.e., the last post by Poor Phineas.
The Red Menace
The Red Menace on Sep 10 '05 at 12:38am
Kudos on to all that have discovered copied/stolen pieces. I've been on Threadless for a day or two now, and seemed to have found you, Poor_Phineas. This is just a direct comment to you (sorry for avoiding the main topic) but I throughly enjoy your crits on some of the shirts. You know what you are doing and I throughly respect that. Just thought you should know ^-^
coolbobby20938
coolbobby20938 on Sep 10 '05 at 9:47am
Snacktivity who posted this comment:

"More like the Dumbo of threadless! I stole all of my designs! and not a single person caught me! I'll just keep doing it too! HAHAHAHA! I'm Invincible!"

is a dumbass...yea even if you stole all your designs nobody called you out on them because they ALL suck, only one even got above a 2.0. Plus now everybody knows you steal designs and so even if you do have a good one nobody is going to give you good scores!
Skipper6745
   Skipper6745 on Sep 10 '05 at 9:55am
Snack likes to kid, learn to detect sarcasm, retard.
snacktivity
snacktivity on Sep 10 '05 at 10:31am
Mr. Bobby.

Do you really have so little common sense that you would believe someone would reveal that they were stealing designs in a thread about people who steal designs? Did you really miss the irony in that?

Next time, try thinking.
Poor_Phineas
Poor_Phineas on Sep 10 '05 at 2:26pm
I'm sure Snacktivity was just having some fun with me. In turn:

http://rockdovestudios.com/threadless/columbo.jpg

Nothing gets by Columbo!

(Too bad I can't post images in blog comments!)

gerpander
gerpander on Sep 10 '05 at 2:28pm
Brilliant Phineas.
tesko
   tesko on Sep 10 '05 at 2:28pm
If you want to be Columbo, you're going to have to build up a false sense of security with your suspects, then keep returning again again with the line "oh, there is just one more thing thats bothering me" before going all cross eyed and shuffling off.
tesko
   tesko on Sep 10 '05 at 2:29pm
Haa I wrote that before I saw that picture. Just one more thing...

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