well really, other than simple icons or symbols, alone or arranged, would you really want 'graphic design' on a shirt?

...seeing as how alot of graphic design involves FONT, and fonts may as well be like farts in the face around here, you're right, it's not really design.

what is design? coming up with a new shape?

Well Graphic design uset to be called "commercial art"

Visual Communication.

i dont think that sums it up as well as the word commercial. 99% of what graphic designers do is sell product. In the end thats what it comes down to. I think thats what differenciates it from the other art forms. Some people dont see it as art at all, im sure bottles included.

yeah, i can see that. but when is an idea or story told TOO MUCH throught the pic, versus not enough... if you fall oout of that balance, is that bad design?

I don't think we should let ourselves get bogged down with semantics.

yeah i think it is. Illustration should not bash you over the head and it also shouldnt make you go "huh?" going just far enough to tell the story. Thats good design.

i think graphic designers should be taught in diffeerent schools than studio art people.

and leave my nam out of this hahah

i think graphic designers should be taught in diffeerent schools than studio art people.

Man, this could really become a serious debate huh? I have to agree though, most would be classed as illustration. And Trav's comment about type and fonts made me laugh...

Bottlesandcans aguement started with a founded question, but then he just semmed to be getting off on rubbing folks up ther wrong way, so it didn't warrant a response. Am I wrong?

well here i disagree with you bottles, i went to a school with fine arts people. I had to take alot of painting and drawing classes too. Seems like one of the few schools that stresses that. Personally i think it made me a better artist on both sides of the fence. I never really met anyone with your attitude towards design but maybe they kept thier opinions to themselves.

okay speaking of bad graphic design...what the fuck has happened to movie posters? all you need now is a black backgound, and orange, brown or blue lit/filtered (sometimes red, if horror or pulp) faces, half cast in shadow, maybe one grainy object, and a cheesy ass tag line. and these designers only ever use like, 4 fonts...ever.
if it's comedy, it's a white background- with the star centrally placed, in some precarious situation, and it's usually a very bad photoshop job, often putting thier heads on a stunt body or something.
what was the last GOOD poster design you saw?

designers are people who do a couple things..
1)ads
2)cereal boxes
3)all the dirty work that an illustrator doesnt want to do like page layout..
4)get carp tunnel
5)dont get paid enough
6)get stuck doing web pages and extra crap and not getting paid extra for it.
7)rip off ideas or recycle ideas fom other people
8)get brain tumors from computer screens.

and i wouldnt necessarily say i "get off" as much as it does make me chuckle a little bit.

I'm currently attending a school where I've got to take drawing / painting classes, and I'll agree that it's made me a much more well-rounded artist, though I hated every second of it. I've always been keen to software rendering, but those classes taught me so much more than "how to draw." I learned perspective, proper shading techniques, the Gestalt Theory, etc.

Stuff I never would've been taught in my Illustrator/Photoshop/Flash classes.

Haven't really noticed any movie posters lately, to get back on topic.

wow the only thing i have to argue with is 5 and 8

Mind you im in a very different situation than most, and consider myself lucky.

bottlesandcans;

Re: 6, I get paid very well to do graphic design/web design/maintenance for Target. My original job title was Graphic Designer, but it's only blossomed into something much better than that, not to mention much more profitable.

Re: 7, Nice generalization, but as far as I'm concerned, it's all been done before. Becoming inspired by something is not ripping off/recycling other's ideas.

Re: 8, Touched your dome lately?

does bm stand for bowel movement?

Dude, I'm sure things are great if you're managing to do graphic design in the Caymans. I'm very jealous. A kiwi guy I know is doing it there (Damien), and his life style is the best. Great pay, fishing, diving etc.

And don't bother argueing any of those points. It more a designer stereotype.

that comment is for GCMBob btw

BM i think that 6 dosent applly to may be the exception to the rule. For the most part i think he is right. Most people dont get paid enough for the hassle

Mr Rocks, where does he work do you know?

oh and..
6) good for you your one of the lucky ones.. maybe try helping out the other 300,000 graphic esign kids find a job that pays
7)thinking its been done before is the reason settle for drawing stick figures and thinking its cool.
8)i wish i had a brain tumor so i could name it bm

Jeez you're a shit stirer

an eye for an eye

They're my initials, and aren't they hilarious.

Your insults are pretty childish for an established artists with a wife and kid. Anyhow, I suppose I am one of the lucky ones. The other 300,000 junior designers have to make breaks for themselves. Being underpaid is nobody's fault but your own.

I liked it better when noone even knew what graphic design was.

im not sure too many people outside of artists know now

CGMBob. No I don't know, but I'll find out. I'll hang about the blogs the next few days and find out exactly where he works, and post it in your blog posting. I know its a long shot...but worth asking.

well if he's getting paid well that dosent leave too many options to tell you the truth

i liked it beter when there wsnt graphic design..

Yeah, bottlesandcans, back before man existed?

well maybe before you did possibly?but then we would be getting into the gene pool era.

Wait, what?

The t shirts would be under Graphic communications, BUT when applying for a graphic design or advertising design job saying you designed a shirt that was printed couldnt hurt

yeh alot of illustration degrees are being called "communications" which is kinda strange..communications make me think of p.r. work not really graphic design.

no i think being able to illustrate is a feather in your cap. But dont take this work as being even similar to graphic design, its not.

um... if you use a scanner to scan what you draw in.. and then clean it up in photoshop and then change it to a black and white tiff, then vector it and clean up anchor points and color it in illustrator..its graphic design.

I have to disagree. Just because it enters the computer realm dosent make it graphic design. GD in my opinion is designing things primarily for marketing purposes. If you make things in the computer for illustative purposes, its an illustration.

once a hand drawn image enters the matrix.. its ruined.

shit stirer

hahahahaaha nah dude. for real dont you think so? i mean really..

here's what it boils down to: Graphic Design is visual communication, yes today it's mostly for advertising but that's beause it's the medium of choice, however keep in mind people that within the last century there has been a massive shift in the art movements from painting and sculpture philosophies to philosophies in communication. just take post modernism as an example of communicating a societal message while still advertising. I believe this falls under graphic design because regardless of wether its just an illustration or abstract elements arranged on the shirt, there are visual principles and basic forms in action here. just because the shirt isn't promoting nike's newest shoe doesn't mean it's not design. And to those who say there are people just making images on here without considering anything other than "making it pretty", i'll just remind you of the term, idiot savant...

"once a hand drawn image enters the matrix.. its ruined. " - How wrong you are:

http://www.jaspergoodall.com/folio.html
http://jonburgerman.com/

and I assume or know that all of the following submissions were handdrawn at one point:

http://www.threadless.com/submission/42247/EdenTwoPointOh
http://www.threadless.com/submission/42026/Don't_shoot_the_Messenger!
http://www.threadless.com/submission/43576/beasts
http://www.threadless.com/submission/27152/Powered_by_Mezcal
http://www.threadless.com/submission/42295/Like_I_give_a__@$#!!!_v.2.
http://www.threadless.com/submission/34484/bush
http://www.threadless.com/submission/33725/Baron_Von_PickleSnort
http://www.threadless.com/submission/26716/Glitz_Remix
http://www.threadless.com/submission/42109/Bombvoyage!

a good illustration doesn't "have to" have anything to do with design and it can also have everything to do with design... yup
- fin -

i think my point is illustration in terms of telling a story with pictures, and doing it well, while "designed" well in terms of composition etc, has little to do with acual "graphic design".

im not talking about it looking bad.. im talking about an image in its purity.

What an asinine argument. Yes you're probably right Graphic Design isn't art. Just like photography and illustration weren't arts to painters, or how painting and architecture weren't arts to ancient sculptors. The medium is nothing. It's a tool in a tool box. A wrench doesn't fix your plumbing, a plumber does. Art is in the artist, not the manner in which it is created. Design is an art if the designer makes it so. Painting is an art if the painter makes it so.

Yes, a large portion of designers fashion products to be sold. What do illustrators and painters do? Live off good intentions? I'm sure that all the work DaVinci did for Cosomo de Medici was pure, unadulterated creative flow and not catered specifically to the tastes of his fantastically wealthy client. Commercialism in art is not some sudden bizarre mutation of the modern world. And design has been around for ages. What was Gutenberg doing with his bible? Better yet, what were all those monks doing with those illuminations? Better still, what about posters? Sumi? Any civilization that required the expression of information in an organized manner has employed graphic designers, there just was no formal umbrella for that concept. Much like there was no formal anatomy until Da Vinci.

Anyone can make broad generalizations about an idea using nothing but the negative executors of said idea. That doesn't make it the truth.

And no, rock 'n' roll isn't the devil's music nor is hip hop all about violence, sex and drugs.

Art is in the artist, not the manner in which it is created....??

so maybe we should all just keep it in our heads and talk about it..
paradox.

Wouldn't that be a form of performance art?


Communication: Hey, I've got something to say.

Visual Communications: Hey, I've got something to say and I'll use text and pictures and color.

Graphic Design: Hey, I've got something to say to sell my product or my advertiser's products.

Illustration: Hey, I've got an interesting way of saying what you want said.

Fine Art. Fuck you all, I'm just going to say whatever I want.

Where's threadless? Somewhere between illustration and fine art in my mind.